Medical examiner: George Floyd had 'fatal level of fentanyl' in his system, but is 'not saying...

[Michie]

...this killed him'

Dr. Michael Baden explains that a fatal dose for some people can barely affect others

New court documents filed this week in the case against four Minneapolis police officers charged in the death of George Floyd provide new context to how he died.

A memorandum filed by the Hennepin County Attorney’s office on June 1 indicated that chief medical examiner Dr. Andrew Baker, who listed Floyd’s death as a homicide, thought the amount of fentanyl in Floyd’s blood was “pretty high” and could be “a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances.”

“[Dr. Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death,” the memo said.


According to another memo on June 1, Dr. Baker told investigators that while Floyd had a high amount of fentanyl in his system, he was “not saying this killed him.”

Former New York City chief medical examiner Dr. Michael Baden, who performed an autopsy for Floyd’s family that also determined his death was a homicide, explained that the amount of fentanyl that was in Floyd's system can have vastly different effects on different people.

“Like all narcotics, there’s a wide range of what’s lethal or not, because it all depends on the tolerance of the individual from whom the blood has been drawn,” Baden, a Fox News contributor, said Thursday. “So clearly, that could be fatal to some people, not necessarily for others. But the circumstances of death are very important, especially in this case.”

Continued below.
Medical examiner: George Floyd had 'fatal level of fentanyl' in his system, but is 'not saying this killed him'

 

[BobRyan]

He was saying he couldn't breathe while they were trying to put him in the car - before any sort of scuffle or restraint. He was having a fentanyl problem early on.

Would have been great if he were not fighting and so could be transported with Ambulance
would have been great if they had the medical training to diagnose someone who is struggling as having OD on fentanyl.
would have been great if they had the medical training to diagnose someone who is not struggling as having OD on fentanyl and could then call for ambulance as transport.
But of course "breath analyzer is one thing" but "blood sample" is quite another for police making an arrest. They are not "anesthesiologists" or toxicologists out there making arrests.

Sooo many "if only"

 

[com7fy8]

On the street, officers and outreach workers have been trained to spot fentanyl overdose symptoms and give an overdosed person Narcan which can snap a person right out of it. Or, does Narcan only work for heroin overdoses, but not fentanyl? Let me check > here is a CDC writing about fentanyl and if Narcan is recommended for treating fentanyl overdoses >

Fentanyl | Drug Overdose | CDC Injury Center

In this article, in the section, "What can be done?" we have >

"Naloxone is a safe and effective antidote to opioid-related overdoses, including heroin and fentanyl, and is a critical tool in preventing fatal opioid overdoses."

Naloxone, I understand, is Narcan. Even non-professionals are being taught to carry a dose of Narcan, in case they happen to find an overdosed person, and they are taught what the symptoms are. I have even been hanging out on the street when an outreach worker came up to me and offered to give me a dose of Narcan to carry on my person, in case I found someone overdosed, and she right there, I understood, intended to teach me what symptoms to look for.

So police, I would say, can be more advanced in such training, plus have experience with this. Someone with years on the force could have CPR training, too; so he could know that if a suspect goes limp on the ground, he should immediately check George's carotid pulse to make sure of if he was in distress or faking.

So, if I were a jury member, I would have to consider that this cause of death does not prove he was not murdered. Of course, I do not know what was going on inside the heads of three officers who likely have CPR training and even experience for the officers with more time in service, and likely had Narcan training. What were they processing in their minds . . . while a person went limp and they did not check the carotid and ascertain for drug overdose signs?

I don't think you can prove they were on purpose intending for him to die. But I would say this could still qualify for negligent homicide . . . if they are proven to have training and especially if one or more has had past experience. But if any officer was proven to be expert and experienced in CPR and overdose evaluation and treatment, he could be in for a murder charge, I suppose.

 

[JohnDB]

Look at how much gear the police have to carry now...

Flashlight, firearm, bullet proof vest, body camera, pepper spray, nightstick, handcuffs, tazer, pad of paper, pen, radio, gloves, cell phone, and what else?
Good grief!
It's going to require a cart to carry all that junk. Especially if you add to it.

 

[Running2win]

On the street, officers and outreach workers have been trained to spot fentanyl overdose symptoms and give an overdosed person Narcan which can snap a person right out of it. Or, does Narcan only work for heroin overdoses, but not fentanyl? Let me check > here is a CDC writing about fentanyl and if Narcan is recommended for treating fentanyl overdoses >

Fentanyl | Drug Overdose | CDC Injury Center

In this article, in the section, "What can be done?" we have >

"Naloxone is a safe and effective antidote to opioid-related overdoses, including heroin and fentanyl, and is a critical tool in preventing fatal opioid overdoses."

Naloxone, I understand, is Narcan. Even non-professionals are being taught to carry a dose of Narcan, in case they happen to find an overdosed person, and they are taught what the symptoms are. I have even been hanging out on the street when an outreach worker came up to me and offered to give me a dose of Narcan to carry on my person, in case I found someone overdosed, and she right there, I understood, intended to teach me what symptoms to look for.

So police, I would say, can be more advanced in such training, plus have experience with this. Someone with years on the force could have CPR training, too; so he could know that if a suspect goes limp on the ground, he should immediately check George's carotid pulse to make sure of if he was in distress or faking.

So, if I were a jury member, I would have to consider that this cause of death does not prove he was not murdered. Of course, I do not know what was going on inside the heads of three officers who likely have CPR training and even experience for the officers with more time in service, and likely had Narcan training. What were they processing in their minds . . . while a person went limp and they did not check the carotid and ascertain for drug overdose signs?

I don't think you can prove they were on purpose intending for him to die. But I would say this could still qualify for negligent homicide . . . if they are proven to have training and especially if one or more has had past experience. But if any officer was proven to be expert and experienced in CPR and overdose evaluation and treatment, he could be in for a murder charge, I suppose.

Let um die! Less drug addicts = a better society. And then they end being "heros".

 

[Michie]

Let um die! Less drug addicts = a better society. And then they end being "heros".

Stop. That is not coming from a Catholic pov which is the context of which things are do be discussed.

 

[JohnDB]

On the street, officers and outreach workers have been trained to spot fentanyl overdose symptoms and give an overdosed person Narcan which can snap a person right out of it. Or, does Narcan only work for heroin overdoses, but not fentanyl? Let me check > here is a CDC writing about fentanyl and if Narcan is recommended for treating fentanyl overdoses >

Fentanyl | Drug Overdose | CDC Injury Center

In this article, in the section, "What can be done?" we have >

"Naloxone is a safe and effective antidote to opioid-related overdoses, including heroin and fentanyl, and is a critical tool in preventing fatal opioid overdoses."

There's more than one way to make fentanyl...the cheap stuff coming up from Mexico doesn't use an opioid base...it's made from something else. (I was talking to an Aunt and she was telling me that they were having trouble with this and I can't remember what it was...but it's another powerful painkiller)

 

[Michie]

There's more than one way to make fentanyl...the cheap stuff coming up from Mexico doesn't use an opioid base...it's made from something else. (I was talking to an Aunt and she was telling me that they were having trouble with this and I can't remember what it was...but it's another powerful painkiller)

I heard just touching it inadvertently could kill you.

 

[com7fy8]

Look at how much gear the police have to carry now...

Their cruiser was right there.

A cruiser can carry specialty firearms which an officer does not always carry on his or her person. Also, there can be an oxygen tank with a mask for resuscitation. And there can be other items, because of how officers can be the first on any emergency scene; they are so trusted, so often being in isolation with a very needy person. I would say this is something ones could appreciate more, in considering police work > how trusted a person is while being the first to answer to a need. They do not only do crime fighting, to say the least.

And there can be quite a variety of hardware they carry in the trunk and elsewhere, for various sorts of personal need responses.

So, it is important that they carry compassion, ready for any person.

 

[Running2win]

Stop. That is not coming from a Catholic pov which is the context of which things are do be discussed.

I thought this was a general politics forum? Not a Catholic? I'm all for the unborn, but not second chances for criminals and drug heads. They made their choices.

 

[JohnDB]

I heard just touching it inadvertently could kill you.

They were having a bunch of people overdose on some kind of street drug...and they couldn't use the normal stuff to bring them down.

 

[com7fy8]

There's more than one way to make fentanyl...the cheap stuff coming up from Mexico doesn't use an opioid base...it's made from something else.

And therefore, I suppose, Narcan might not effect what does not have opioid in its chemical make-up.

But I have been told you can Narcan an unresponsive person who really has another problem and it won't hurt the person.

Plus, the ones who did George's autopsy likely could have distinguished by testing which fentanyl he was on.

But even if he had the Mexican version, still those officers could get evaluated about if they could have used CPR training and experience to know they should have checked George and not just held him down without evaluating what was going on. An officer told me they should be including that in their investigation.

 

[Michie]

I thought this was a general politics forum? Not a Catholic? I'm all for the unborn, but not second chances for criminals and drug heads. They made their choices.

No this is a sub forum for Catholics to discuss politics from a Catholic perspective. Others are welcome to discuss here as well as long as it does not go into debate advocating for things our faith teaches against. You are more than welcome to participate but within certain boundaries.

 

[Michie]

They were having a bunch of people overdose on some kind of street drug...and they couldn't use the normal stuff to bring them down.

I know the police are very careful about touching a drug with bare skin. Not sure which though.

 

[JohnDB]

Their cruiser was right there.

A cruiser can carry specialty firearms which an officer does not always carry on his or her person. Also, there can be an oxygen tank with a mask for resuscitation. And there can be other items, because of how officers can be the first on any emergency scene; they are so trusted, so often being in isolation with a very needy person. I would say this is something ones could appreciate more, in considering police work > how trusted a person is while being the first to answer to a need. They do not only do crime fighting, to say the least.

And there can be quite a variety of hardware they carry in the trunk and elsewhere, for various sorts of personal need responses.

So, it is important that they carry compassion, ready for any person.

And in the cruiser they got three different types of radios, more cameras, and laptops and fire extinguisher, blankets, gas cans, tire changing equipment, more firearms and ammunition, rain gear, first aid kits, ECM and oxygen to go with....
It's little wonder why they switched to SUVs.

Police are not mobile rescue squads...we would like to think so. They are police...officers of the courts. They aren't everything to everyone.

There are such things as paramedics, ambulances, firemen and the like.

From as much flak as they take for all the different responsibilities the police got it's a wonder why anyone would want the job for all the low pay they get.
Now you want to add even more to them with ACLS training on top of the EFA/CPR they receive? It's just not reasonable.

Monday morning quarterbacking what should have happened doesn't help. These are all split second decisions (even if it doesn't seem that way to us).
No one pulled out a firearm on a suspect that was resisting arrest and obviously stoned out of his mind on something and trying to drive away.
If George had driven away and killed someone else the police again would be to blame. As it was they called for the ambulance long before George said he couldn't breathe...but again George was probably suffering not only from the fentanyl but also the three days of meth and a recent bout with Coronavirus.

IMHO George's own attitude killed him...the one that said it was a good idea to do drugs and fight with police.

 

[com7fy8]

Let um die! Less drug addicts = a better society. And then they end being "heros".

Jesus suffered and died like He did, with hope for any evil person, at all. And we who are children of God are told to follow His example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Plus, in the early scriptures there is the death penalty for more than drug abuse.

So, Jesus might say, let the one without sin cast the first stone, and go and sin no more.

Also, in order to end a scourge, you need to not only kill off the ones that are hurt because of cooperating with the scourge. You need to destroy the culture which is producing it.

For example, if you killed all the germs on the people who were already dying of bubonic plague, this would not solve the problem. There were the rats that needed to be eradicated, and the need to end the conditions and habits and foolish theories of all the people who were actually helping to spread the germs.

For another example, in the case of drug abuse > possibly, parents have not learned how to love. Their modus operandi of relating could be arguing and complaining and even fighting! And children of their upbringing can grow up not knowing how to love, and not being strong in Jesus, then, so they can stand against the things which drive people and lure people to drugs.

So, you have the parents and their culture and ways of relating in marriage, as a major possible contributor. But Jesus does not want us to destroy all the addicts and the people helping to culture them >

"the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." (in Luke 9:56)

 

[com7fy8]

Now you want to add even more to them with ACLS training on top of the EFA/CPR they receive? It's just not reasonable.

Ones already have this training, and are expected to use it.

IMHO George's own attitude killed him...the one that said it was a good idea to do drugs and fight with police.

This is another part of things, which will be accountable on the day of judgment, if not legally now. There is the matter of if he was being a manly role model to help youths to grow up to know how to love and live, or was he helping to destroy black children's lives by being a bad example? Examples can have a lot to do with how black children grow up; and local men can have much more time and access to effect children, than police who might have influence for much less time to effect children. Not only the police will answer to God about how we have been influencing our children.

 

[JohnDB]

Ones already have this training, and are expected to use it.

This is another part of things, which will be accountable on the day of judgment, if not legally now. There is the matter of if he was being a manly role model to help youths to grow up to know how to love and live, or was he helping to destroy black children's lives by being a bad example? Examples can have a lot to do with how black children grow up; and local men can have much more time and access to effect children, than police who might have influence for much less time to effect children. Not only the police will answer to God about how we have been influencing our children.

ACLS training and certification is the same training Nurses (RN) has to have to work in a hospital or Dr office or even a school nurse...

It's the job of paramedics to do this stuff...
Police has their hands full...
If some want the added training I see no issue with it. But to make it mandatory?
It's unreasonable.

 

[Running2win]

Jesus suffered and died like He did, with hope for any evil person, at all. And we who are children of God are told to follow His example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Plus, in the early scriptures there is the death penalty for more than drug abuse.

So, Jesus might say, let the one without sin cast the first stone, and go and sin no more.

Also, in order to end a scourge, you need to not only kill off the ones that are hurt because of cooperating with the scourge. You need to destroy the culture which is producing it.

For example, if you killed all the germs on the people who were already dying of bubonic plague, this would not solve the problem. There were the rats that needed to be eradicated, and the need to end the conditions and habits and foolish theories of all the people who were actually helping to spread the germs.

For another example, in the case of drug abuse > possibly, parents have not learned how to love. Their modus operandi of relating could be arguing and complaining and even fighting! And children of their upbringing can grow up not knowing how to love, and not being strong in Jesus, then, so they can stand against the things which drive people and lure people to drugs.

So, you have the parents and their culture and ways of relating in marriage, as a major possible contributor. But Jesus does not want us to destroy all the addicts and the people helping to culture them >

"the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." (in Luke 9:56)

People are judged by the choices they make, not their environment. Here is some other things Jesus taught too.

1And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I thought this was a general politics forum? Not a Catholic? I'm all for the unborn, but not second chances for criminals and drug heads. They made their choices.

You can try your murderous attitudes elsewhere in Christian Forums but in OBOB you have to at least respect the sensibilities of your Catholic hosts and not write 'Let um die!'. You have the rest of Christian Forums to try that out. Capisce?