Meaning: "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

[DawnStar]

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; - 1 Timothy 3:2

I have seen this verse interpreted in many ways.
1) A bishop MUST be married
2) A bishop cannot have more than one wife
3) A bishop cannot ever have been divorced and remarried to another woman
4) A bishop can be divorced but if they remarry they can marry only one woman
4) A bishop can never consume alcohol because then he will not be sober
5) A bishop does not have to be married but if he is then he cannot be a polygamist
6) A bishop cannot be a woman because the verse specifically says he must be a husband
People interpret it to fit and support their learned beliefs.

 

[rockytopva]

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:12-3

There was one Jacob (Israel)
There were 12 sons
There were many generations

And if you read the Old Testament there were many hits and misses along the way, with many generations regressing into total wickedness. They will all stand in their lot in that last day

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

One Christ - Head of the church
Seven Congregations - Seven unique churches
Seven Angels - We are all angels in one of the congregation, held in the right hand of Christ Jesus.
Seven Seals - All the names of the angels of the congregations will have their names sealed in the book of life.

And if you read history there were many hits and misses along the way, with many congregations regressing into total wickedness, forcing the church to develop new congregations, but within the body of Christ. We will all stand in our lot (congregation) in that last day.

And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? - Revelation 5:2

And the seven congregations making up the whole church in Christ...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Those within these congregations make up the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

If I had a vision for a "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church," I would visualize a team of people meeting and fellowship together....

Messianic - Top leaders of that church
Persecuted - Leaders from what I would generalize as the Oriental Orthodox Church
Orthodox - Leaders from the Russian and Eastern Orthodox church
Catholic - The Pope along with leaders from the Catholic church
Protestant - Leaders from several denominations
Methodist / Pentecostal - Bishops from several denominations
Charismatic / Word of Faith - Kenneth Copeland seems to be the top name here..

My goodness! That would be a tough group to get together!

 

[Apex]

Greek letter had only one form. No caps.

Forgive me...

Then why do you capitalize these words in your English translation? Do you believe the phrase "holy catholic and apostolic church" is a proper noun?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have seen this verse interpreted in many ways.
1) A bishop MUST be married
2) A bishop cannot have more than one wife
3) A bishop cannot ever have been divorced and remarried to another woman
4) A bishop can be divorced but if they remarry they can marry only one woman
4) A bishop can never consume alcohol because then he will not be sober
5) A bishop does not have to be married but if he is then he cannot be a polygamist
6) A bishop cannot be a woman because the verse specifically says he must be a husband
People interpret it to fit and support their learned beliefs.

People interpret scripture and the farther they go the more off track they become.

It's not for interpretation. It is the text of worship services.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If I had a vision for a "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church," I would visualize a team of people meeting and fellowship together....

Messianic - Top leaders of that church
Persecuted - Leaders from what I would generalize as the Oriental Orthodox Church
Orthodox - Leaders from the Russian and Eastern Orthodox church
Catholic - The Pope along with leaders from the Catholic church
Protestant - Leaders from several denominations
Methodist / Pentecostal - Bishops from several denominations
Charismatic / Word of Faith - Kenneth Copeland seems to be the top name here..

My goodness! That would be a tough group to get together!

Nope. Not going to happen.

Forgive me...

 

[DawnStar]

It's not for interpretation.

Anytime someone puts forth a meaning they are interpreting a text. When you said that Paul was stating that the Bishop could not be a polygamist you were interpreting its meaning.

 

[Apex]

People interpret scripture and the farther they go the more off track they become.

It's not for interpretation. It is the text of worship services.

Forgive me...

Many letters, like Philemon and 2 John, were originally personal correspondence. They were not created for any worship service.

 

[DamianWarS]

Kata holos.... "Concerned with the whole".

They used it exclusively to show what was in and what was out.

It had nothing to do with the modern ecumenical movement of "everything goes, all are included".

In fact just the opposite. It showed who was not included. Namely Arius and others rightly labeled heretics.

Forgive me...

There's an early 2nd century use of the term being used for the Church and it properly means universal in Greek. the term is included from the creed resulting from the First Council of Constantinople (381) and considered Nicaean in faith. In a sense it is a term used for separation as you mention but the Arius heresy is contrasted in more specific language of the creed. The inference is that if you cannot profess the creed you were not included in this holy catholic church.

There were heresies and schisms of the church in the 4th century (hence the need for the creed) but saying "catholic" carried a different meaning than it does today; today is looked at as a proper noun and is abstract but then much more concretely defined without a spiritual weight. If we are to look at the creed itself as a profession of being a part of this holy catholic church then you will find most christian communities can be included in this as they profess the creed.

Can it be interpreted? it has been that's for sure. From what I understand greek/latin in the 4th century didn't carry upper/lower case distinctions suggesting a level of interpretation at a later time (middle ages?) when these distinctions were required. What is important is not what "catholic" means now or what it meant when languages evolved but what it meant in the 4th century.

An important note here that you need to be careful with is CF defines this word themselves as "* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"

It's a statement from the Nicene creed.

Is the meaning static as defined by those who wrote it or are we free to reinterpret it as we see fit?

Forgive me...

Creeds by men should never determine the truth;
Only God's Word alone should determine the truth.

Anyways, communication is key to sharing the truth. If one's name is similar to another that you may disagree with then one should try to use words that are different and not the same. I hear the word "Catholic" and I think RCC or the Roman Catholic Church. This is because this the common understanding of this word by most people. If I am of a particular belief that I feel contradicts the RCC belief, then I should not use any word that is related or associated to that. For how many times have you had to correct others and say, "Oh no. We are not Roman Catholic, we are... (Fill in the blank here ____________________________ for your standard greeting card explanation for your church)."

Also, please stop saying "forgive me." It really is annoying, my friend.

For example: Imagine you are in a conversation with someone and they kept saying, "Dogs are awesome!" "Cats are bad" every time they replied back to you in a normal back and forth conversation.

It would be crazy talk if they did that. So stop it. Please. Have mercy on the rest of us.


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[DawnStar]

Also, please stop saying "forgive me." It really is annoying, my friend.

It does not annoy me. Although if he put it in his signature line he would not have to type it over and over.

Dogs are awesome!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It does not annoy me. Although if he put it in his signature line he would not have to type it over and over.

Dogs are awesome!

Yeah, it would make more sense if he had it in his signature (Where it is out of the way but yet, still there). But I am not sure he is going to do that. I also have talked for many years on forums. So I see forum talk as natural as speaking face to face. So while it may not annoy you, it does annoy me and I can imagine others, as well.

But why do that?
Why annoy some people?
For surely nobody does this in normal face to face conversations.



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[Goatee]

Creeds by men should never determine the truth;
Only God's Word alone should determine the truth.

Anyways, communication is key to sharing the truth. If one's name is similar to another that you may disagree with then one should try to use words that are different and not the same. I hear the word "Catholic" and I think RCC or the Roman Catholic Church. This is because this the common understanding of this word by most people. If I am of a particular belief that I feel contradicts the RCC belief, then I should not use any word that is related or associated to that. For how many times have you had to correct others and say, "Oh no. We are not Roman Catholic, we are... (Fill in the blank here ____________________________ for your standard greeting card explanation for your church)."

Also, please stop saying "forgive me." It really is annoying, my friend.

For example: Imagine you are in a conversation with someone and they kept saying, "Dogs are awesome!" "Cats are bad" every time they replied back to you in a normal back and forth conversation.

It would be crazy talk if they did that. So stop it. Please. Have mercy on the rest of us.


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It is 'Catholic' not Roman Catholic. Even the Catholic Church do not use the word Roman!

As for the OP saying 'Forgive me' in every post I think it lovely and shows he doesn't mean to go out of his way to hurt anyone but if he does then he asks for forgiveness.

 

[DawnStar]

Yeah, it would make more sense if he had it in his signature (Where it is out of the way but yet, still there). But I am not sure he is going to do that. I also have talked for many years on forums. So I see forum talk as natural as speaking face to face. So while it may not annoy you, it does annoy me and I can imagine others, as well.

To each his own.

Dogs are awesome!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I really don't care if it hair-lips the Pope.

The thing is why waste time having to explain your belief to others all the time?

You are free to leave.

Why so touchy? We are two believers who are supposed to be following Christ's footsteps. We should be able to get along. I am just telling you to be courteous in the way you communicate. That is all. No need to take offense.

In fact, do yourself a favor and put me on ignore.

Let's no go there, my friend.
Remember, love is patient and long suffering.

or
Shut up.

Now, that is not nice.
Anyways, may God's goodness be upon you.

Forgive me...

Jesus forgives.


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[OrthodoxyUSA]

The inference is that if you cannot profess the creed you were not included in this holy catholic church.

Yep... they were judging others.

If we are to look at the creed itself as a profession of being a part of this holy catholic church then you will find most christian communities can be included in this as they profess the creed.

Disagree

What is important is not what "catholic" means now or what it meant when languages evolved but what it meant in the 4th century.

Agreed, and the reason I disagree with the above.

An important note here that you need to be careful with is CF defines this word themselves as "* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."

CF is not an authority.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The thing is why waste time having to explain your belief to others all the time?



Why so touchy? We are two believers who are supposed to be following Christ's footsteps. We should be able to get along. I am just telling you to be courteous in the way you communicate. That is all. No need to take offense.



Let's no go there, my friend.
Remember, love is patient and long suffering.



Now, that is not nice.
Anyways, may God's goodness be upon you.



Jesus forgives.


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Your comment was 'ad hominem' and unwelcome.

If you're going to attack me. Do not be surprised when I throw it back at you.

Forgive me...

 

[ubicaritas]

"catholic" doesn't mean "universal", it means "whole". It was first used by the early, pre-Nicene church to distinguish the Faith from those who were gnostic sects.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

man aren't there enough of topics on this?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Christ left us various sayings within a book and he himself as paraclete to guide and comfort us until the coming of our Father.

Church: kurios ‘master or lord’

The Church has left us many saying in the texts which they used for services. Christ left us a Church.

Forgive me...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your comment was 'ad hominem' and unwelcome.

If you're going to attack me. Do not be surprised when I throw it back at you.

Forgive me...

It is not an attack against you. It is me standing by my standard of morality or God's goodness. I am just letting you know it not courteous to repeat words in a normal conversation.

As for statement that says, "throwing it back at you:"

Did not Jesus say to turn the other cheek? If you feel I have offended you, then I apologize. But I am just letting you know how I would like to be treated when I talk with people.


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