Meaning of Coming in Clouds, Stars, Sun and the Moon

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by Mike Etemadi
Praise the Lord! I am certain that you and I are in a definite minority. Just about everyone I talk to, expects a physical, riding on the clouds descent. When I press the issue and ask the same type of questions that I have asked here, they end up telling me that "with God everything is possible", "it does not matter how much a bigger a star is, God will make it a smaller and makes it fall on earth" and so on.

So if you do not believe that He will be coming in the clouds, how do you expect Him to return?

Again, I would stress that this is not a "minority" view. Only in the English-speaking world, where we have raised generations of Christians unfamiliar with the symbolism inherent in Jewish apocalyptic and the subtle nuances of Koine Greek, does the errant dispensationalist view hold sway.

When will the Lord return? Next Sunday! Whenever two or three are gathered in his name, there he is in the midst, just like his post-resurrection appearances to the Apostles. In worship, we join with the great cloud of witnesses around the throne of God, offering ourselves up as a living sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. This is the anticipated parousia; the Book of Revelation fulfilled before our very eyes.

Your clear hosannas raise, and alleluias loud; whilst answering echoes upward float like wreaths of incense cloud. Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice, give thanks and sing. (Edward H. Plumptre, 1865)

 

[Thunderchild]

1. If Jesus was literally taken up, then Elijah was literally taken up also in chariots of fire and the Jews had every reason to disbelieve in Christ for His indentification of John the Baptist as Elijah. Prophecies clearly pointed to Elijah coming back before the day of the Lord. And yet Christ introduced John the Baptist as Elijah, a person who had been born recently. Why make the same mistake that the Jews made and expect a physical descent from the sky?

Were the Jews told that the fore-runner would be Elijah? Or was that an assumption? Was there anything to tell the Jews that Elijah would return in the same way that he had gone? or was that an assumption? Is saying that John is Elijah-who-was-to-come saying the same as John is Elijah? (and no, I don't know the answers to those questions.)

8. Where is this Physical Heaven that Christ has ascended to? Telescopes have not discovered it yet! How far up is it?

Given the descriptions throughout the Bible, anyone or anything arriving on Earth from heaven appears to be descending - Including the celestial city itself. Whatever the empirical realities, heaven is subjectively "up." I would take it that it is up in the same way that the sun rises and sets - not that that is what happens, but that is what it looks like.

Ah now... the kingdom of heaven is among us. Heaven itself is among us? Careful with that one - In one city of Australia, America is among us, the small piece of territory in that city is fully American. It is called an embassy.

The manner of his return will be the same as his ascent. So - he will appear to be descending from a position where he cannot be seen among the clouds, coming into view through the mists of cloud, descending thereafter in full view. Whether or not he is accompanied is irrelevant - only the manner of his personal return is described.

5.Due to the curvature of the earth, He will have to make many thousands of reentries for everyone to see Him.

Either that or he could make a controlled sub-orbital descent. But I will take it that he will be seen of all men after his descent, if not during, rather than he will be seen of all men during his descent. (Unless of course, the miners, deep sea divers and such all have the day off when he returns.)

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Ah now... the kingdom of heaven is among us. Heaven itself is among us? Careful with that one - In one city of Australia, America is among us, the small piece of territory in that city is fully American. It is called an embassy.

And what is a local congregation of believers, if not an outpost of heaven on earth, an "embassy" of the kingdom of God? And doesn't Paul refer to believers as "Christ's ambassadors?"

The manner of his return will be the same as his ascent. So - he will appear to be descending from a position where he cannot be seen among the clouds, coming into view through the mists of cloud, descending thereafter in full view. Whether or not he is accompanied is irrelevant - only the manner of his personal return is described.

Either that or he could make a controlled sub-orbital descent. But I will take it that he will be seen of all men after his descent, if not during, rather than he will be seen of all men during his descent. (Unless of course, the miners, deep sea divers and such all have the day off when he returns.)

For Christ to "descend" in the manner you describe, he would have to take on the likeness of fallen humanity again. That's what is implied in "descent." Since Christ has already descended to the very depths of death itself, only to rise again and ascend to the heights of heaven, his presence even now fills all things. So, in one sense, your analogy to the rising and setting of the sun is valid. But to understand the deeper implications of Acts 1:11, you need to go back to Luke 9:51 and take into consideration all the subsequent events which took place "as the time approached for him to be taken up." Christ's "going into heaven" cannot be taken in isolation from his suffering, death and resurrection. All these things are part and parcel to his being "taken up." Thus, the promise that "this Jesus. . .will come in the same way you have seen him going into heaven" should be understood in connection with "these things." In the Gospels, every time a group of disciples came together and "were discussing these things," Jesus came and stood among them.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by Mike Etemadi
Patty,

It is a lovely explanation. Please explain how you see this relate to the fulfillment of the prophecy regarding the second coming? That is, in His second coming He is supposed to come inthe clouds. Do you take this literallY?

Hey Mike,

Long ago, I was taught by a wonderful man to learn to look at things from a one degree different perspective. I've practiced this over these many years. And, with regard to the Second Coming of Christ, I did the same exercise and got some insight.

First, I'd like to explain that I believe that the Bible is a collection of books that help me to learn how to improve my personal behavior. And, I also believe that every lesson in the Bible demonstrates many examples of how God loves.

So, when I approach the Bible, I keep those two things in mind by asking myself: How does what I am about to read demonstrate in some way how God loves? And, how can what I am reading help me to learn how to improve my own behavior.

With this in mind, I reflected on the words, "The Second Coming of Christ"
As you know, "Christ" was not Jesus' name, nor is it any part of His name. It is a designation. To me, Christ means 'enlightened'. It comes from a Greek word from the same Greek word meaning 'Annointed', or 'oil'. Chrism comes from the same root. Chrism is oil used for annointing, and it is 'crystal' clear, that is free of impurities. An 'enlightened' person is one who is crystal clear on the issue being discussed, so to speak.

I did this to discover what the Second Coming of Christ means:
First: He will come on a cloud. That means to me that we are in a fog regarding Truth. We cannot see our way clear, and sometimes don't even know which way we're going. Truth will come to us and pierce through that cloud of ignorance of Truth.

Second: Take the words, "THE" "SECOND" "COMING" "OF" "CHRIST" and look at what they mean. I did this:

THE means THE (hahaha, but that's all I can say about it)

SECOND means AGAIN
COMING (COME) means MOVE TOWARD, or ARRIVE

Therefore,

SECOND COMING means RETURN

OF means OF (again, that's fine as I understand it)

CHRIST means ENLIGHTENMENT


So, to me, personally, 'The Second Coming of Christ' means 'The Return of Enlightenment'

Jesus' preachings support this. He worked hard to wake people up to the Holy Father's message of Truth. He worked hard to 'awaken' people to 'enlightenment'. Therefore, he was known as the "Christ", or 'Enlightener'.

PAROUSIA is another word I worked on. It comes from the word, PAROUS, meaning 'teeming with life'. So, Parousia is a 'state of teeming with life'.

But, going further with the word, PAROUSIA, one finds that PAROUS has its root in the word, PAR, meaning no more and no less than expected. So, PAROUS also means a condition of doing just what is expected of one. A woman is termed 'parous' when she has carried a child and given birth, which is just what is expected of a female.


Thus, PAROUSIA, to me, means being in the state of doing just what God expects of me to do - no more, no less. That, to me, means that I am to be good, enjoy life, not sin, not harm others or impose on them, and some other things. But, God does not desire us to try to be more or less than what He created us to be. Once we achieve true PAROUSIA, we will find that happiness with the Holy Father that is known as heaven.


Before anyone aims their guns at me for what I've just written, I hope you'll please think, think, think about what is contained herein with sincere hearts.

God bless you,

Patty

 

[Patmosman_sga]

"Parousia" is from two Greek words: "para," with or among, and "ousia," being. Literally, it means "being with." It is, at its very root, a word describing a relationship. In this case, it is the perfect relationship between God and human beings which existed before the fall and is restored through the death and resurrection of Christ. It is the relationship which believers can experience in Christ both now and in the restoration of all things when the outworking of Christ's victory in the resurrection is fully realized.

 

[Patty]

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
"Parousia" is from two Greek words: "para," with or among, and "ousia," being. Literally, it means "being with." It is, at its very root, a word describing a relationship. In this case, it is the perfect relationship between God and human beings which existed before the fall and is restored through the death and resurrection of Christ. It is the relationship which believers can experience in Christ both now and in the restoration of all things when the outworking of Christ's victory in the resurrection is fully realized.

Hey Patmosman,

As much as I respect your words , I am sorry to say that I have to differ with you on this one.

Please note what is in Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary:

Parousia n. 1. advent (def. 4). 2. (l.c.) Platonism. the presence in any thing of the idea after which it was formed. <Gk parousia a being present, presence, equiv. to par- PAR- + ous- (s. of on , prp. of einai to be + -ia -IA)


To rephrase what it means to me, and as I stated, Parousia means being as God desires me to be, no more and no less.


Patty

 

[Patmosman_sga]

Originally posted by Patty
To rephrase what it means to me, and as I stated, Parousia means being as God desires me to be, no more and no less.

And how are we to be as God desires us to be without being in a perfect relationship with him. That is, after all, why he created us.