Maybe it's just me

[Almost there]

The children's Christmas Program was a church yesterday. It all went fine and good. Here's what's bothering me. The pastor removed all the candles from the front of church, and the cross that hangs behind the altar. The altar, pulpit, and lectern were also stripped of their paraments. The advent wreath was also removed. All of this was done because the play presented was supposed to take place in a court room and the pastor wanted the front of church to look like a court room as much as possible. This isn't the first time the area around the altar has been cleared out like this to present a story or drama. I just feel like the pastor would prefer a theater instead of the sanctuary of a church. Guess I'm starting to show my age. My wife says I'm too traditional and much too picky about these things.

It's you. The church building is just that - a building. Unlike man made religions (and Judaeism), Christianity does not have holy places. It is all within the body of believers. Any building we build or adorn to meet in His name and for His purposes is just a building. It is our presence there in his name that makes it special (wherever two or more are gathered...).

So strip it down and throw in a basketball hoop on Saturday nights if you want to.

 

[Resha Caner]

Your explanations are only more questions. I asked a question and you answered with two questions that i answered.....yet you still only have more questions and no answers.

You've said you're making no assumptions, yet that simply can't be. In post #2 you indicated the entire problem was how @meyerjd viewed these items. As such, you must have assumed what his view of these items is. Yet you'll not tell me what you think the Lutheran view of these items is. Instead you ask me to explain. If you need that explained, that should probably be where you started rather than with a criticism of how Lutherans worship. Regardless, I did explain: they are symbols that communicate a meaning. You seemed to think that wrong, so I asked about how you worship. Your answer was too vague for me to use, so I asked you to clarify. For some reason that offended you and now you refuse to continue.

If you won't talk to me, all I'm left with are my assumptions - and in the absence of any explanation from you, I'm more than willing to admit that I make assumptions. I'm also more than willing to accept any corrections you might make to my assumptions about your views. However, at the moment, it appears to me you know where I'm going and don't want to concede that the Bible is a collection of symbols - textual symbols (or sound symbols if spoken). You probably further realize you would be upset if someone took those symbols away and told you to worship without them - if someone claimed it's possible to worship Christ without the Bible. While that may technically be true, it wouldn't make you happy if someone refused to let you use a Bible. God gave us the Bible. Why should we passively accept someone removing it?

The Lutheran use of symbols is neither idolatry (we don't believe the symbols are God), nor iconophilia (we don't believe the symbols are imbued with mystical power from God that is surrendered to the holder of the article). They are a means of communication with God in the same way the Bible is.

What if one of the worshippers was illiterate? Unable to interpret the textual symbols of the Bible? The Lutheran tradition began during a time when illiteracy was very high. If so, don't you think pictures of the Bible stories would be very helpful in communicating those stories? Are those pictures really any different than the Bible itself? Do those pictures suddenly become wrong if a person learns to read? Especially for someone like me who is dominated by visual learning. I struggle to learn audibly (by hearing sermons, etc.). Is it wrong for me to want those pictures - maybe even prefer them? Why is it wrong for me to express concern if they're removed?

Paraments, a cross, candles, robes, and altar - all just symbols and a means of communicating. Technically one can worship without them, but is there a reason one must worship without them? Is it unreasonable to express concern when the way one is accustomed to worshiping is removed? I don't think so.

It's even more concerning if those Christian symbols are replaced with other symbols - symbols that (as @meyerjd stated) represent a theater rather than a temple. It would be even worse if symbols were introduced that represented a synagogue or a mosque.

As it stands you leave the impression you think people shouldn't be bothered by any of that. Then I need to inform you some people are different from you and some people are bothered by those things. I am one of those people.

 

[Resha Caner]

It's you.

Ugh. Sympathy and understanding just abounds. A reminder this is a Lutheran forum.

 

[Almost there]

Ugh. Sympathy and understanding just abounds. A reminder this is a Lutheran forum.

I was simply answering a direct question with a direct answer. We all have different gifts. One of mine is a binary mind and a direct answer.

It's why I'd make a lousy counselor. Then again, sometimes people need the unvarnished truth. I suppose I should have put a smiley next to the "it's you" because I was just having fun with the OP's question when I typed that. If we were face to face, I'd have smiled when I said it.

 

[Resha Caner]

I was simply answering a direct question with a direct answer. We all have different gifts. One of mine is a binary mind and a direct answer.

It's why I'd make a lousy counselor. Then again, sometimes people need the unvarnished truth. I suppose I should have put a smiley next to the "it's you" because I was just having fun with the OP's question when I typed that. If we were face to face, I'd have smiled when I said it.

It's better to start by trying to understand the context of the question. When my son was little he would unleash an uncharacteristically dramatic resistance to eating his sandwich. Being the "good" dad that I was - wanting him to be strong and healthy - I pressured him to eat it. Then we learned he had Celiac. Boy did I feel like a %^*$#&$.

 

[Almost there]

It's better to start by trying to understand the context of the question. When my son was little he would unleash an uncharacteristically dramatic resistance to eating his sandwich. Being the "good" dad that I was - wanting him to be strong and healthy - I pressured him to eat it. Then we learned he had Celiac. Boy did I feel like a %^*$#&$.

I was basing my response on the context of the OP. Like I said, I should have used a smiley.

 

[Resha Caner]

I was basing my response on the context of the OP.

So you understand the context of Lutheran worship? To be honest, I doubt that. But I'm willing to be corrected.

 

[Almost there]

So you understand the context of Lutheran worship? To be honest, I doubt that. But I'm willing to be corrected.

I was responding to the information in the OP.

 

[Resha Caner]

I was responding to the information in the OP.

Since the opportunity is in front of us, let's take it. The question I am about to ask could be seen as an attack, but I don't mean it that way. I'm letting go of the posts that preceded this one. I'm simply curious and ask only as a friendly inquiry.

Have you ever attended a service at a Confessional Lutheran church?

 

[Almost there]

Since the opportunity is in front of us, let's take it. The question I am about to ask could be seen as an attack, but I don't mean it that way. I'm letting go of the posts that preceded this one. I'm simply curious and ask only as a friendly inquiry.

Have you ever attended a service at a Confessional Lutheran church?

I attended a lutheran church back around 1979. I wasn't a Christian back then. But I don't see why I should even interpret your question as an attack. Is there a reason that I need to have attended? The OP didn't mention it.

 

[Resha Caner]

But I don't see why I should even interpret your question as an attack.

I see. Well, that's something we'll need to get out in the open. On the spectrum of communication from the very subtle British/Japanese end to the very direct German/American end, it would appear you are at the very direct end. I fall toward the subtle end. That can lead to misunderstandings. I'll try to be more direct.

Is there a reason that I need to have attended?

Not in a Justification sense, but in a Sanctification sense it could be you're missing out on some very rich experiences. Though it depends on what church you attend.

Let's start with the symbol thing. Maybe later we can move into the sacramental thing. Do you think symbols have any use at all?

 

[Almost there]

I see. Well, that's something we'll need to get out in the open. On the spectrum of communication from the very subtle British/Japanese end to the very direct German/American end, it would appear you are at the very direct end. I fall toward the subtle end. That can lead to misunderstandings. I'll try to be more direct.



Not in a Justification sense, but in a Sanctification sense it could be you're missing out on some very rich experiences. Though it depends on what church you attend.

Let's start with the symbol thing. Maybe later we can move into the sacramental thing. Do you think symbols have any use at all?

Here is the issue, and I'll use an analogy to make it: I'm sure that other woman is very attractive, would make an excellent wife, and might be awesome in bed, but I'm quite happily married. I don't need to know.

That said, I love this one: What's the difference between a lutheran and a baptist? The lutheran will say "hi" when you see him in the liquor store.

For context, I moved from Seattle to a dry, baptist county in KY. I now get the joke.

 

[Almost there]

I have to ask: Have I stumbled into some "lutherans only" thread? If so, I'll quietly back out.

 

[RaymondG]

You've said you're making no assumptions, yet that simply can't be. In post #2 you indicated the entire problem was how @meyerjd viewed these items. As such, you must have assumed what his view of these items is. Yet you'll not tell me what you think the Lutheran view of these items is.

The OP'er asked a question and gave background. From the information given, I gave an answer. Do you know that the OP'er only wanted to hear from people who agreed with them? Or did they want honest opinions?

I looked at the OP'er as a child of God, nothing more, nothing less. You seem to judge people based on their religious affiliation; so it is understandable that you believe others have to as well. I dont. I know nothing of the Lutheran religion, and therefore have nothing good or bad to say about it. In fact, I did not even know the OPer was a Lutheran or that I was in a Lutheran forum until you said it...and then proceeded to judge me as someone on the other side of a line you drew in the sand...how I have to believe the opposite of everything believed by the people on your side of the sand. My answer was based on the question and the information given......I gave no thought to the beliefs of a group of people and made no link to the OP'er to any group.

Instead you ask me to explain. If you need that explained, that should probably be where you started rather than with a criticism of how Lutherans worship.

Answering a yes or no question with yes or no, does not count as criticism. Not much mention was made to the way one worships. I didnt know these items was apart of your worship until you said so....and this is why I asked if they were removed, would you still be able to worship. If you need them, by all means use them. I said nothing about anyone being right or wrong.

Regardless, I did explain: they are symbols that communicate a meaning. You seemed to think that wrong, so I asked about how you worship. Your answer was too vague for me to use, so I asked you to clarify. For some reason that offended you and now you refuse to continue.

Again, I asked a question and didnt say anything was wrong.....but since i know that you are judging me as an outsider with outsider beliefs, I can understand why you feel this way.
And you dont have to worry about offending me.....I dont get offended easily.....not by the removal of items in a church, nor by reading words.

However, at the moment, it appears to me you know where I'm going and don't want to concede that the Bible is a collection of symbols - textual symbols (or sound symbols if spoken). You probably further realize you would be upset if someone took those symbols away and told you to worship without them - if someone claimed it's possible to worship Christ without the Bible. While that may technically be true, it wouldn't make you happy if someone refused to let you use a Bible. God gave us the Bible. Why should we passively accept someone removing it?

NO, I dont know where you are going....as I dont judge one person based on a group of people, nor do I bring conversations of the past into the present. Every conversation is new and every person individual. And again you cant upset me. If your words could upset me, I would not have given the response to the OP that i did. I fully believe that you can worship without the bible. Thy words have i hid in my heart.... Taking away the bible, wouldnt make me happy or sad. Anything you take, God will replace 7-fold.

You can accept or reject anything you like...you have free will. The question in the OP did not ask what they should do.....it was "is it just me" or not.

The Lutheran use of symbols is neither idolatry (we don't believe the symbols are God), nor iconophilia (we don't believe the symbols are imbued with mystical power from God that is surrendered to the holder of the article). They are a means of communication with God in the same way the Bible is.

I dont understand why you are telling me these things. I made no such claims, nor could i since I know nothing of the Lutheran practices.

What if one of the worshippers was illiterate? Unable to interpret the textual symbols of the Bible? The Lutheran tradition began during a time when illiteracy was very high. If so, don't you think pictures of the Bible stories would be very helpful in communicating those stories? Are those pictures really any different than the Bible itself? Do those pictures suddenly become wrong if a person learns to read? Especially for someone like me who is dominated by visual learning. I struggle to learn audibly (by hearing sermons, etc.). Is it wrong for me to want those pictures - maybe even prefer them? Why is it wrong for me to express concern if they're removed?

More good information that seems to be for a group of people, and not me. It is not wrong for you to want anything you want. I did not say it was, nor would I.

Paraments, a cross, candles, robes, and altar - all just symbols and a means of communicating. Technically one can worship without them, but is there a reason one must worship without them? Is it unreasonable to express concern when the way one is accustomed to worshiping is removed? I don't think so.

Again, who said anyone must do anything?

It's even more concerning if those Christian symbols are replaced with other symbols - symbols that (as @meyerjd stated) represent a theater rather than a temple. It would be even worse if symbols were introduced that represented a synagogue or a mosque.

I see no fault in you being concerned about these things.

As it stands you leave the impression you think people shouldn't be bothered by any of that. Then I need to inform you some people are different from you and some people are bothered by those things. I am one of those people.

The only impression you have, is that of everyone else on the opposite side of the line as you. My religion doesn't say Lutheran, so I must believe the opposite of everything you believe, or at least feel the same as everyone else on this side of the line. Well I dont.....I am unique and my own person. We cant have a conversation until you realize that.

 

[Resha Caner]

That said, I love this one: What's the difference between a lutheran and a baptist? The lutheran will say "hi" when you see him in the liquor store.

It's more than just a joke. I have an M.A. in history and focused on the history of the Lutheran church in the U.S. The traditions that are considered typically American stem from an odd marriage of Reformed/Puritan ideas and Enlightenment ideas. It led to an actual confrontation in St. Louis in the 1800s when German-Americans opposed the blue laws. Catholics get more press because there are more of them, but the Orthodox and Lutherans have also had a tough go.

If you came from Seattle, then you have the full bloom of that additionally odd marriage between the Enlightenment and Eastern mysticism as a background. Plus, living in Baptist Kentucky now gives you that Puritan experience - maybe even with a Presbyterian flavor.

But my guess is you've not really encountered the Confessional Lutheran world.

Here is the issue, and I'll use an analogy to make it: I'm sure that other woman is very attractive, would make an excellent wife, and might be awesome in bed, but I'm quite happily married. I don't need to know.

Sorry, my friend, but if you're going to talk to a Confessional Lutheran and intend to convey any sincerity - any respect for my beliefs - then you will need to know.

I have to ask: Have I stumbled into some "lutherans only" thread? If so, I'll quietly back out.

It's a Lutheran forum, but I was inviting you to stay and learn something.

 

[RaymondG]

I have to ask: Have I stumbled into some "lutherans only" thread? If so, I'll quietly back out.

I feel the same......I look at the new thread links on the side and they dont say what forum they are in....Have to remember that there are people who only want to hear from others who are a part of the same group.

 

[Resha Caner]

I gave no thought to the beliefs of a group of people and made no link to the OP'er to any group.

That you gave no thought to your answer is obvious. Context is very important, my friend, as you should be able to tell from all the things you didn't know about the question being asked. I am dumbfounded that you are surprised someone might take your answer as a criticism. It's a simple matter of human interaction that if you walk into someone else's house and start telling them the problem is all them, they might take that as a criticism.

I wasn't judging you, but asking you questions. Your refusal to answer gives an impression of ruffled feathers. And if you refuse to answer, I have nothing to go on but what I can assume from your very vague and abbreviated answers.

BTW, every human being who has ever lived is a child of God. To think that means you can treat them all the same is naive.

It is not wrong for you to want anything you want. I did not say it was, nor would I.

Good to know.

 

[Almost there]

Sorry, my friend, but if you're going to talk to a Confessional Lutheran and intend to convey any sincerity - any respect for my beliefs - then you will need to know.

Well, that is not possible. I can not be well informed on the detailed beliefs of every single Christian sect out there. I focus on what the bible says and what is communicated to me through prayer and leave the churches to deal with their specifically unique traditions. It doesn't mean I am unqualified to talk to another professing Christian that doesn't happen to attend my church.

It's a Lutheran forum, but I was inviting you to stay and learn something.

For future reference, how does one find out when a thread is lutheran only?

 

[Almost there]

Have to remember that there are people who only want to hear from others who are a part of the same group.

Maybe it is just me, but I hate echo chambers.

 

[RaymondG]

I am dumbfounded that you are surprised someone might take your answer as a criticism. It's a simple matter of human interaction that if you walk into someone else's house and start telling them the problem is all them, they might take that as a criticism.

I am not surprised by this at all, as there are many on CF who question and respond just like you do....yet I do not expect that everyone will...I just take it as it come.

I more accurate analogy, would be someone inviting me into their house and asking if I felt the problem with with them and then giving an honest answer to the question....and in this case, I dont believe the requester would believe any answer would be critical.

But I understand why you do.

BTW, every human being who has ever lived is a child of God. To think that means you can treat them all the same is naive.

Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. These are possible. I would not treat you differently base on what religion you were a part of. But I see find no fault in you doing so.