Maybe it's just me

[meyerjd]

The children's Christmas Program was a church yesterday. It all went fine and good. Here's what's bothering me. The pastor removed all the candles from the front of church, and the cross that hangs behind the altar. The altar, pulpit, and lectern were also stripped of their paraments. The advent wreath was also removed. All of this was done because the play presented was supposed to take place in a court room and the pastor wanted the front of church to look like a court room as much as possible. This isn't the first time the area around the altar has been cleared out like this to present a story or drama. I just feel like the pastor would prefer a theater instead of the sanctuary of a church. Guess I'm starting to show my age. My wife says I'm too traditional and much too picky about these things.

 

[RaymondG]

Yes it is just you....

 

[Resha Caner]

The children's Christmas Program was a church yesterday. It all went fine and good. Here's what's bothering me. The pastor removed all the candles from the front of church, and the cross that hangs behind the altar. The altar, pulpit, and lectern were also stripped of their paraments. The advent wreath was also removed. All of this was done because the play presented was supposed to take place in a court room and the pastor wanted the front of church to look like a court room as much as possible. This isn't the first time the area around the altar has been cleared out like this to present a story or drama. I just feel like the pastor would prefer a theater instead of the sanctuary of a church. Guess I'm starting to show my age. My wife says I'm too traditional and much too picky about these things.

That would bother me as well, but it would depend somewhat on the relationship of the Christmas program to other church services. We are blessed with a large facility such that we have a large sanctuary, a smaller chapel, and a gym. Children's programs are often held in the gym because they are not church services. So, if it's simply the case that you attend a smaller church that doesn't have access to those types of facilities, I could probably tolerate it. As long as ...

1) It's made clear the children's program is not a church service
2) The program doesn't displace regular church services

 

[RaymondG]

That would bother me as well, but it would depend somewhat on the relationship of the Christmas program to other church services. We are blessed with a large facility such that we have a large sanctuary, a smaller chapel, and a gym. Children's programs are often held in the gym because they are not church services. So, if it's simply the case that you attend a smaller church that doesn't have access to those types of facilities, I could probably tolerate it. As long as ...

1) It's made clear the children's program is not a church service
2) The program doesn't displace regular church services

What does the extras...parliaments, decorations....have to do with worshipping God? Why would this bother you?

 

[Monksailor]

Maybe you could request the Pastor to let you prepare props and banners to put in front of the items you do not want removed. They start rehearsing usually months b4 the concert and the music leader may know even long b4 that so you would have quite some time to design and construct things and if needed you could get some help from the other members.

 

[Resha Caner]

What does the extras...parliaments, decorations....have to do with worshipping God? Why would this bother you?

Meaning is communicated through symbols.

 

[RaymondG]

Meaning is communicated through symbols.

So you communicate with God through symbolic objects, and if they are removed, you can't communicate anymore?

 

[meyerjd]

My issue was the christmas program was in place of our only weekend service. The pastor welcomed everyone to church at the begining, then the offering was collected, next was the program, the pastor thanked all for coming and that was the end.

 

[RaymondG]

My issue was the christmas program was in place of our only weekend service. The pastor welcomed everyone to church at the begining, then the offering was collected, next was the program, the pastor thanked all for coming and that was the end.

I can understand someone taking issue with this. I use to myself... until I separated going to church buildings from the worship of God in spirit and in truth. Now...I can till go to church even when the physical building are closed down.

 

[Resha Caner]

So you communicate with God through symbolic objects, and if they are removed, you can't communicate anymore?

I know what you're getting at - knew it from your first post. But what you're implying is a misunderstanding of the meaning of such things in the Lutheran church. As I used the term, even you communicate via symbols.

 

[Resha Caner]

My issue was the christmas program was in place of our only weekend service. The pastor welcomed everyone to church at the begining, then the offering was collected, next was the program, the pastor thanked all for coming and that was the end.

Yeah, that's bad. I would talk to him about it.

 

[RaymondG]

I know what you're getting at - knew it from your first post. But what you're implying is a misunderstanding of the meaning of such things in the Lutheran church. As I used the term, even you communicate via symbols.

Give me an example of how I communicate with God via symbols, which can be taken away.

 

[Resha Caner]

Give me an example of how I communicate with God via symbols, which can be taken away.

Which can be taken away? Why does that matter? You're reaching.

Regardless, anything can be taken away. Give me an example of how you worship - that would be the first step to answering your question.

 

[RaymondG]

Which can be taken away? Why does that matter? You're reaching.

Regardless, anything can be taken away. Give me an example of how you worship - that would be the first step to answering your question.

I worship in the temple in which the spirit of God dwells. I worship with my thoughts and feelings...with my beliefs, by casting down vain imaginations. I worship by picking up my cross and following Him....By calling Him Lord, Lord while also doing what He says.

Now can you answer? You can forget the "things taken away" part. Answer however you feel you can.

 

[Resha Caner]

I worship in the temple in which the spirit of God dwells. I worship with my thoughts and feelings...with my beliefs, by casting down vain imaginations. I worship by picking up my cross and following Him....By calling Him Lord, Lord while also doing what He says.

Now can you answer? You can forget the "things taken away" part. Answer however you feel you can.

Help me out. After the change, what is your request? is it: Give me an example of how I communicate with God via symbols?

I would probably also need some examples. What thoughts constitute worship? Does thinking about buying groceries constitute worship? Or, rather, might it be something like meditation upon a Bible verse?

 

[RaymondG]

Help me out. After the change, what is your request? is it: Give me an example of how I communicate with God via symbols?

I would probably also need some examples. What thoughts constitute worship? Does thinking about buying groceries constitute worship? Or, rather, might it be something like meditation upon a Bible verse?

This thread is about removing physical items from the church and how this can rub some the wrong why. The question is how does removing these items affect the worship, thereby giving good reason to alarm the worshipers.

 

[Resha Caner]

This thread is about removing physical items from the church and how this can rub some the wrong why. The question is how does removing these items affect the worship, thereby giving good reason to alarm the worshipers.

And in order to explain, I want to help you understand how a Lutheran sees these items. If there is a thought this might be idolatry or iconophilia, you need to understand that not all symbols fall into those categories.

So, I'm trying to relate this to how you worship. Therefore, I have asked you a question. Does your worship ever involve a Bible verse?

 

[RaymondG]

And in order to explain, I want to help you understand how a Lutheran sees these items. If there is a thought this might be idolatry or iconophilia, you need to understand that not all symbols fall into those categories.

So, I'm trying to relate this to how you worship. Therefore, I have asked you a question. Does your worship ever involve a Bible verse?

I assumed nothing, I only asked questions. I see you are use to debating your practices with people who assume and assume what you do is wrong. I am not one to debate. And since you are not able to answer questions.....which only stemmed from a reply you gave to my post...we can end the conversation here.

 

[Resha Caner]

I assumed nothing, I only asked questions. I see you are use to debating your practices with people who assume and assume what you do is wrong. I am not one to debate. And since you are not able to answer questions.....which only stemmed from a reply you gave to my post...we can end the conversation here.

I wasn't debating. I was explaining. So you won't answer my question? Then, yes, the conversation is over, because it's the best way I can think of to answer your question.

And I think I've been rather charitable to a non-Lutheran who came into a Lutheran forum and told a Lutheran the problem was all his.

 

[RaymondG]

I wasn't debating. I was explaining. So you won't answer my question? Then, yes, the conversation is over, because it's the best way I can think of to answer your question.

And I think I've been rather charitable to a non-Lutheran who came into a Lutheran forum and told a Lutheran the problem was all his.

Your explanations are only more questions. I asked a question and you answered with two questions that i answered.....yet you still only have more questions and no answers.

And yes, you were very charitable for letting me post on this forum. Thanks for the charity.