Matthew 7 "everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them"

zoidar

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(2) What are you trying to determine? Is it your point that after regeneration sin no longer works in our members? That we are now incapable of sinning? That would be the only conclusion I can come to right now by your inquiry. Or is it that now after regeneration we realize this warring of the flesh and inner man and duly believe and understand that to overcome sin it can only be accomplished through Jesus Christ? If the latter, then I agree.

That Paul didn't have the power to overcome sin as a Pharisee, but as he got born again he got the Holy Spirit who gave him power to overcome sin and no longer be in bondage to sin.

No not incapable of sinning, but capable to not sin, which was impossible before. His nature changed by being born again.

Most Christians seem to say: "We are sinners, saved by grace." I tend to say: "We were sinners saved by grace." I mean when do Paul refer to himself or other Christians as sinners? He calls Christians saints, not sinners. Of course I don't believe we can live a whole life without sinning, but sinning should be rare, and not every day practice.

Christians today, seem to say we are like everyone else in the sense that we sin, but we are holy in the sense of trusting in the cross. I don't believe that! I believe Christians should live holy lives, not never failing, but neither living like ordinary people.
 
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zoidar

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With that in mind your qualitative standard would be:

Matthew 5: NASB

48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yes, this is how Christians should be. Jesus says in Matthew 5:19:

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So if we fail to keep his commands we can still be saved but be the least in heaven, but if we keep them we shall be called great in heaven.
 
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zoidar

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I would say that's the wrong question.

I don't suppose you're asking "how much sin can I get away with?" If a person was asking that, they haven't understood at all.

Think of it like this. Say you are GREATLY at risk of dying of some horrible disease. Your doctor advises you to change your diet, stop smoking, get 30 minutes of gentle exercise each day, avoid alcohol, get at least 7 hours of sleep each night, and take 3 medications.

You are asking how much of it you have to actually do in order not to die from the disease.

It's not a legal thing of checking off boxes. It's how following Jesus affects you spiritually. How much must you do in order to be spiritually healthy?

Only God knows. None of us are perfect of course and God knows that too. It's not about legalities and judgement based on those. It's how we become based on how we interact with God.

Someone who is an alcoholic and gets drunk every day and struggles to stop can still be saved. Someone who doesn't have any real irresistible compulsion to any particular sin at all can simply decide he'd rather sin anyway, and that carelessness and deferring to the flesh can ultimately be spiritually deadly, even though he appears to follow commandments fairly well.

Only God knows. It's more about the heart. How do the things you do, and the things you decide not to follow Christ in, and the reasons for your choices - affect you spiritually? I can't answer that, not knowing you.

I get your point that it's about the heart, deciding to live for Christ. You wrote:

"I don't suppose you're asking "how much sin can I get away with?" If a person was asking that, they haven't understood at all."

No, I'm rather asking how much do I have to live for Christ? Do I have to give all my savings in the bank to the poor, as Jesus says we are not to save for ourself but for heaven? Do I have to open up my home for homeless people, as Jesus says? Do I have to be on the street every day or so to share the gospel? Etc...

I know this is what Jesus wants, but I don't think I can do it, or I don't want to do it? I don't think I can give EVERYTHING I have for Jesus. I sometimes feel like the young man who walked away from Jesus because he didn't want to sell everything for the Kingdom of God.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I get your point that it's about the heart, deciding to live for Christ. You wrote:

"I don't suppose you're asking "how much sin can I get away with?" If a person was asking that, they haven't understood at all."

No, I'm rather asking how much do I have to live for Christ? Do I have to give all my savings in the bank to the poor, as Jesus says we are not to save for ourself but for heaven? Do I have to open up my home for homeless people, as Jesus says? Do I have to be on the street every day or so to share the gospel? Etc...

I know this is what Jesus wants, but I don't think I can do it, or I don't want to do it? I don't think I can give EVERYTHING I have for Jesus. I sometimes feel like the young man who walked away from Jesus because he didn't want to sell everything for the Kingdom of God.
Ah ok I see your question better.

That becomes a bit nuanced. Did God ASK YOU to sell everything and give to the poor? He asked that question of the rich young man because He knew the man's heart and wanted to reveal it to him. He could have been an Apostle.

God doesn't demand everyone live in poverty. Abraham was wealthy. So was Job, and God restored his wealth. And the world has had a way of becoming more complicated. If you have any family you must provide for, then you cannot give everything away and leave them without provision.

But it is about the heart. We must not be so attached to anything we have above God. What if you know of a need someone has, and you could help, but it will cost you something you wanted? That will help reveal your heart. Or what if you have an opportunity to do something that will benefit you spiritually but you must miss work and lose some income, or take a lesser paying job, to do it? These all reveal to us. And ... we don't have to be perfect.

But different people have different struggles. Some people do tend to be attached to monetary things and find it hard to give. Another person might not have a real inclination to or attachment to wealth. If the second person gives everything up, does that make him somehow "better" than the first? Actually, it doesn't. No more than a person who doesn't like the taste of alcohol and so doesn't drink at all can think he's better than an alcoholic who TRIES not to get drunk but "falls off the wagon" in spite of his struggle. The actual struggle to overcome the flesh has great value. If a particular weakness just doesn't tempt us, that is no virtue on our part. Just a cross we don't happen to bear.

If you're asking these particular questions, maybe you've identified some particular struggle you have. That's good - you know where to start. In that case, if it were me, I would start with little things. Pack a few bags with food, socks, and common needs, and give them when you see people in need. Put aside a little money and find a good way to donate to help needy people with it. Find opportunities to volunteer. Giving helps teach us to be generous, and to love others. It will probably feel good, but it's not the "feeling good about ourselves" part that we want. Find those things that help you be happy for the person getting help, that helps you rejoice with them, that increases your caring about them, and focus on those things. That will begin to change us and our attachments. It's a start. Where we go from there - well I can't say. You might have a particular talent you can apply to such ministrations. Or God might make you aware of another completely different area that needs your attention.

But remember it's not legalism. We CANNOT BUY our salvation. And God isn't looking to bar the door against anyone. He wants all people to be saved. So He will do everything we allow Him to do to help us. Our part is just to cooperate.

Asking particular questions as you have can help us see where we are "sick" or fall short of Christ. Doing something about it is like taking the medicine so God can heal us. It's impossible for us to say "how healed we need to be". That's God's business. But if we cooperate with Him, we know He has all knowledge and has all things in His control, and will indeed complete us in Christ. That's what He does. :)
 
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zoidar

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Ah ok I see your question better.

That becomes a bit nuanced. Did God ASK YOU to sell everything and give to the poor? He asked that question of the rich young man because He knew the man's heart and wanted to reveal it to him. He could have been an Apostle.

God doesn't demand everyone live in poverty. Abraham was wealthy. So was Job, and God restored his wealth. And the world has had a way of becoming more complicated. If you have any family you must provide for, then you cannot give everything away and leave them without provision.

But it is about the heart. We must not be so attached to anything we have above God. What if you know of a need someone has, and you could help, but it will cost you something you wanted? That will help reveal your heart. Or what if you have an opportunity to do something that will benefit you spiritually but you must miss work and lose some income, or take a lesser paying job, to do it? These all reveal to us. And ... we don't have to be perfect.

But different people have different struggles. Some people do tend to be attached to monetary things and find it hard to give. Another person might not have a real inclination to or attachment to wealth. If the second person gives everything up, does that make him somehow "better" than the first? Actually, it doesn't. No more than a person who doesn't like the taste of alcohol and so doesn't drink at all can think he's better than an alcoholic who TRIES not to get drunk but "falls off the wagon" in spite of his struggle. The actual struggle to overcome the flesh has great value. If a particular weakness just doesn't tempt us, that is no virtue on our part. Just a cross we don't happen to bear.

If you're asking these particular questions, maybe you've identified some particular struggle you have. That's good - you know where to start. In that case, if it were me, I would start with little things. Pack a few bags with food, socks, and common needs, and give them when you see people in need. Put aside a little money and find a good way to donate to help needy people with it. Find opportunities to volunteer. Giving helps teach us to be generous, and to love others. It will probably feel good, but it's not the "feeling good about ourselves" part that we want. Find those things that help you be happy for the person getting help, that helps you rejoice with them, that increases your caring about them, and focus on those things. That will begin to change us and our attachments. It's a start. Where we go from there - well I can't say. You might have a particular talent you can apply to such ministrations. Or God might make you aware of another completely different area that needs your attention.

But remember it's not legalism. We CANNOT BUY our salvation. And God isn't looking to bar the door against anyone. He wants all people to be saved. So He will do everything we allow Him to do to help us. Our part is just to cooperate.

Asking particular questions as you have can help us see where we are "sick" or fall short of Christ. Doing something about it is like taking the medicine so God can heal us. It's impossible for us to say "how healed we need to be". That's God's business. But if we cooperate with Him, we know He has all knowledge and has all things in His control, and will indeed complete us in Christ. That's what He does. :)

Thank you! This has given me something to think about.

God has never asked me to give everything to the poor, that is true.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Thank you! This has given me something to think about.

God has never asked me to give everything to the poor, that is true.
You're very welcome if it could help. God be with you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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God bless sister(?) !
If you're asking if I'm a woman, yes I am. :) The picture doesn't help does it? The name Anastasia is feminine for Anastasis, which is Resurrection in Greek - my namesake.

Thank you and God bless you too. :)
 
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zoidar

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He is speaking of knowing there is warring of the flesh vs the inner man.


He is showing that we as of the flesh can never overcome the requirements of the Law which is spiritual.

That he is using "I" should not be an element to confuse us. It is the same as saying "one" in English.



Two points:
(1) you should not be overcome with Paul's us of "him" in the dialogue. He is speaking first person to be specific to his personal experience. In Romans 6 he uses the general "What shall we say then?" In Romans 3 he uses "all" when speaking of the consequences of sin and also "none" when referring to "none are righteous." You really have to take the 'flow' from chapter 1 through the end of the epistle. Romans is a theological dissertation. What some may call today a systematic theology. Romans needs to be treated as such. You entered chapter 7 to determine if Paul was speaking of his former nature or his new nature. Regardless, we are still left with the flesh vs inner man even as regenerated---The regenerated in chapter 7 refers to the 'inner man.'

(2) What are you trying to determine? Is it your point that after regeneration sin no longer works in our members? That we are now incapable of sinning? That would be the only conclusion I can come to right now by your inquiry. Or is it that now after regeneration we realize this warring of the flesh and inner man and duly believe and understand that to overcome sin it can only be accomplished through Jesus Christ? If the latter, then I agree.

Look your understanding of Romans is not new to me. I understand you like to help out, and that's great. But I tried to read Romans like this but in the end I had to give it up. It just didn't fit with the words of Jesus.

There are a lot of studybibles and like you say systematic theology. The problem is they always support a certain theology, Lutheran, Reformed, Catholic etc. I needed to start over. What does Jesus really say? Trying reading it again with a blank mind.

Whatever theologic stance you take there is always verses that seem to say something else than this specific theology. And we have to see how this or that verse can fit our theology. I have come to be more and more drawn to the early Church Fathers (ante-necene) to get a better picture. But obviously I'm not sure about theology, or else I wouldn't have started this thread.
 
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