Matthew 7 "everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them"

[childeye 2]

Actually I am trying to understand how this could be interpreted to "faith only". I'm not 100% sure if I believe in faith only or faith + obedience.

Also I'm trying to find out how to have peace in your heart if you need to be obedient to be saved.

I think Faith only is meant to be applied only in the dichotomy of righteousness by grace through faith vs righteousness by works of the law.

 

[redleghunter]

There are so many different interpretations of Romans.

Not really if read within context and if we take no baggage with us, it is pretty easy to decipher.

Did Paul describe his unsaved state or his saved state in Romans 7 for an example?

It does not matter. He described what it is to be human. We have warring properties of the flesh vs. inner man. As condemned dead in our trespasses the inner man agrees with the flesh. With being in Christ the inner man wars with the flesh. Let's take a look:

Romans 7: NASB​

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

Paul explains it is through Jesus Christ our Lord that we are set free. This is a supernatural change....it is regenerative. Only God can do that. The verses above are not about throwing our arms up and saying "well I have this flesh so if I sin that's ok." On the contrary Paul is offering something really sobering here. He convinces us that in our current state we are prisoners of the law of sin in our members. In chapter 6 (which sets up chapter 7) he tells us that we either are either slaves to sin and death or slaves to God and Righteousness. In both chapters 6 and 7 the difference is always "through Jesus Christ."

This is the Gospel of Grace Paul clearly lays out in the epistle to the Ephesians.

 

[redleghunter]

I think Faith only is meant to be applied only in the dichotomy of righteousness by grace through faith vs righteousness by works of the law.

Dichotomy is the right word. But may I offer, that often, too often people set up an unnecessary dichotomy when does not exist and is not mentioned in Scriptures.

Dr. Martin Luther explained it well in his introduction to Romans:

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.

Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith from DR. MARTIN LUTHER’S VERMISCHTE DEUTSCHE SCHRIFTEN. Johann K. Irmischer, ed. Vol. 63 Erlangen: Heyder and Zimmer, 1854), pp.124-125. [EA 63:124-125]​

 

[zoidar]

Dichotomy is the right word. But may I offer, that often, too often people set up an unnecessary dichotomy when does not exist and is not mentioned in Scriptures.

Dr. Martin Luther explained it well in his introduction to Romans:

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.

Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith from DR. MARTIN LUTHER’S VERMISCHTE DEUTSCHE SCHRIFTEN. Johann K. Irmischer, ed. Vol. 63 Erlangen: Heyder and Zimmer, 1854), pp.124-125. [EA 63:124-125]​

I don't know. I was reborn in June 2010, since then I have had years I haven't been faithful, on the contrary been living in sin. Sure I agree there is a change of heart, but the idea that you automatically will be faithful after rebirth, seems to me as a too optimistic dream.

 

[childeye 2]

Dichotomy is the right word. But may I offer, that often, too often people set up an unnecessary dichotomy when does not exist and is not mentioned in Scriptures.

Dr. Martin Luther explained it well in his introduction to Romans:

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.

Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith from DR. MARTIN LUTHER’S VERMISCHTE DEUTSCHE SCHRIFTEN. Johann K. Irmischer, ed. Vol. 63 Erlangen: Heyder and Zimmer, 1854), pp.124-125. [EA 63:124-125]​

Thank you for the post. I enjoyed Luther's commentary on faith.

I was taught that faith is the foundation that all things Eternal are built upon. The faith that God is the Eternal Power and is therefore Holy and forever trustworthy. That which is Eternal and Holy cannot be proven as such but must be believed in as such.

So an epistemologist walks into a bar and sits down next to a professor of linguistics. After sipping his beer he casually mentions, "Did you know that we don't actually ever know anything?" The professor replied, "Why would you expect me to know that?"...

 

[zoidar]

Not really if read within context and if we take no baggage with us, it is pretty easy to decipher.

It does not matter. He described what it is to be human. We have warring properties of the flesh vs. inner man. As condemned dead in our trespasses the inner man agrees with the flesh. With being in Christ the inner man wars with the flesh. Let's take a look:

Romans 7: NASB​

21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

Paul explains it is through Jesus Christ our Lord that we are set free. This is a supernatural change....it is regenerative. Only God can do that. The verses above are not about throwing our arms up and saying "well I have this flesh so if I sin that's ok." On the contrary Paul is offering something really sobering here. He convinces us that in our current state we are prisoners of the law of sin in our members. In chapter 6 (which sets up chapter 7) he tells us that we either are either slaves to sin and death or slaves to God and Righteousness. In both chapters 6 and 7 the difference is always "through Jesus Christ."

This is the Gospel of Grace Paul clearly lays out in the epistle to the Ephesians.

Romans 7: NASB​

"21I found then the principle that evil was present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concured with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I saw a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which was in my members. 24Wretched man that I was! Who could set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind was serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

You don't think that makes a difference? ​

 

[redleghunter]

Romans 7: NASB​

"21I found then the principle that evil was present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concured with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I saw a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which was in my members. 24Wretched man that I was! Who could set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind was serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin."

You don't think that makes a difference? ​

It makes all the difference as "now" he knows. What do you think happened which allowed Paul to realize the warring of the flesh vs the inner man? His studies of Torah?

 

[childeye 2]

I don't know. I was reborn in June 2010, since then I have had years I haven't been faithful, on the contrary been living in sin. Sure I agree there is a change of heart, but the idea that you automatically will be faithful after rebirth, seems to me as a too optimistic dream.

Righteousness by grace through faith.

Have you ever considered that grace means giving someone the room to make mistakes and learn from mistakes without condemning them for being ignorant? And that faith means trusting that people will indeed one day see their mistakes and have Godly sorrow and remorse? Is this a righteousness we see on the cross when Jesus submits to a crucifixion and yet forgives those who crucify him even as they do it?

 

[redleghunter]

So an epistemologist walks into a bar and sits down next to a professor of linguistics. After sipping his beer he casually mentions, "Did you know that we don't actually ever know anything?" The professor replied, "Why would you expect me to know that?"...

 

[zoidar]

It makes all the difference as "now" he knows. What do you think happened which allowed Paul to realize the warring of the flesh vs the inner man? His studies of Torah?

His rebirth? He realized what he was freed from? He looked back to how his life was before as a Pharisee? I think Paul many times questioned himself as a Pharisee why he couldn't overcome sin.

Romans 7:14 says:
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."

Name one other place in the Bible where Paul says anything in line with that "he is sold into bondage to sin". Mustn't this be how it was before his rebirth?

 

[zoidar]

Righteousness by grace through faith.

Have you ever considered that grace means giving someone the room to make mistakes and learn from mistakes without condemning them for being ignorant? And that faith means trusting that people will indeed one day see their mistakes and have Godly sorrow and remorse? Is this a righteousness we see on the cross when Jesus submits to a crucifixion and yet forgives those who crucify him even as they do it?

I'm not exactly sure what to say... and I'm not really sure I understand what you are saying.

 

[childeye 2]

I'm not exactly sure what to say... and I'm not really sure I understand what you are saying.

Please consider that wickedness is about wanting to find fault in others, because it makes the wicked person feel lifted up in their own sense of self-righteousness. Wickedness therefore shows no grace through faith, because it judges others by works.

Example of wicked judgment:

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.​

Example of wicked mindset vs. grace:

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

 

[zoidar]

Please consider that wickedness is about wanting to find fault in others, because it makes the wicked person feel lifted up in their own sense of self-righteousness. Wickedness therefore shows no grace through faith, because it judges others by works.

Example of wicked judgment:

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.​

Example of wicked mindset vs. grace:

10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.

11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Do you think I have a wicked mindset?

 

[childeye 2]

Do you think I have a wicked mindset?

Not according to the posts I've read so far. Your words convey no guile in my view.

 

[redleghunter]

His rebirth? He realized what he was freed from? He looked back to how his life was before as a Pharisee?

He is speaking of knowing there is warring of the flesh vs the inner man.

Romans 7:14 says:
"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."

He is showing that we as of the flesh can never overcome the requirements of the Law which is spiritual.

That he is using "I" should not be an element to confuse us. It is the same as saying "one" in English.

Name one other place in the Bible where Paul says anything in line with that "he is sold into bondage to sin". Mustn't this be how it was before his rebirth?

Two points:
(1) you should not be overcome with Paul's us of "him" in the dialogue. He is speaking first person to be specific to his personal experience. In Romans 6 he uses the general "What shall we say then?" In Romans 3 he uses "all" when speaking of the consequences of sin and also "none" when referring to "none are righteous." You really have to take the 'flow' from chapter 1 through the end of the epistle. Romans is a theological dissertation. What some may call today a systematic theology. Romans needs to be treated as such. You entered chapter 7 to determine if Paul was speaking of his former nature or his new nature. Regardless, we are still left with the flesh vs inner man even as regenerated---The regenerated in chapter 7 refers to the 'inner man.'

(2) What are you trying to determine? Is it your point that after regeneration sin no longer works in our members? That we are now incapable of sinning? That would be the only conclusion I can come to right now by your inquiry. Or is it that now after regeneration we realize this warring of the flesh and inner man and duly believe and understand that to overcome sin it can only be accomplished through Jesus Christ? If the latter, then I agree.

 

[zoidar]

What sort of qualitative measure have you set up to determine "living faithfully?"

Doing what Jesus tells us in sermon on the plain and mount, among others.

 

[zoidar]

I will come back to answer tomorrow Redleg.

Bless!

 

[childeye 2]

Do you think I have a wicked mindset?

I forgot to add that it seems to me people with a wicked mindset would never ask if they have a wicked mindset.

 

[redleghunter]

Doing what Jesus tells us in sermon on the plain and mount, among others.

With that in mind your qualitative standard would be:

Matthew 5: NASB

48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

 

[~Anastasia~]

My question is how much do I have to follow and act on Jesus words in sermon of the plain and sermon of the mount to be saved?

I would say that's the wrong question.

I don't suppose you're asking "how much sin can I get away with?" If a person was asking that, they haven't understood at all.

Think of it like this. Say you are GREATLY at risk of dying of some horrible disease. Your doctor advises you to change your diet, stop smoking, get 30 minutes of gentle exercise each day, avoid alcohol, get at least 7 hours of sleep each night, and take 3 medications.

You are asking how much of it you have to actually do in order not to die from the disease.

It's not a legal thing of checking off boxes. It's how following Jesus affects you spiritually. How much must you do in order to be spiritually healthy?

Only God knows. None of us are perfect of course and God knows that too. It's not about legalities and judgement based on those. It's how we become based on how we interact with God.

Someone who is an alcoholic and gets drunk every day and struggles to stop can still be saved. Someone who doesn't have any real irresistible compulsion to any particular sin at all can simply decide he'd rather sin anyway, and that carelessness and deferring to the flesh can ultimately be spiritually deadly, even though he appears to follow commandments fairly well.

Only God knows. It's more about the heart. How do the things you do, and the things you decide not to follow Christ in, and the reasons for your choices - affect you spiritually? I can't answer that, not knowing you.