Matthew 5 "fulfill the Law" - and 2 contexts: A-Moral Law, B-Ceremonial

[Deborah D]

The LAW given at Sinai says "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 those who supposed to themselves that doing such a thing is ok "for them" are not reading the actual Bible.

The LAW known to JEREMIAH and his readers is the one HE says is 'written on the heart and mind' -- under the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-33

Here again - Bible details matter.



Agreed. Good exegesis matters.



The Old Covenant includes
"do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
and "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12
and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
and "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

so does the "LAW" that Jeremiah and his readers knew about -- contain those same commandments.

These two points are irrefutable.

The new Covenant includes the Ten Commandments where the "first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:2 and it still applies to Christians to this very day.

So then again.. ."exegesis matters" when understanding the meaning of terms used.

Covenants are "agreements" and laws, conditions, promises etc.

Gal 3 says that the old covenant agreement is of the form "obey and live".

But the New Covenant is in the form of the Gospel , forgiveness of sins, new heart, adoption etc and that new heart has the LAW of God written on it.

Gal 1:6-9 in all of time there is only ONE Gospel and the New Covenant is it. And that gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8.

The New Covenant is ratified in the blood of Christ on the cross -- but its "one gospel" framework was fully active in the OT such that even Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven as we see not only in the OT but also pre-cross in Matthew 17 in the case of Moses and Elijah. God is not limited by time - Christ is the lamb of God slain "From the foundation of the world"

So, this is the answer to my question, "this 'New Covenant law' is based on what"? You're saying that this "New Covenant law" is based on the Mosaic law or what? Is it only based on the commandments from Exodus that you have quoted?
.

 

[BobRyan]

So, this is the answer to my question, "this 'New Covenant law' is based on what"? You're saying that this "New Covenant law" is based on the Mosaic law or what? Is it only based on the commandments from Exodus that you have quoted?
.

I say it is based on the blood of Christ.

The New Covenant (is an agreement) and is ratified in the blood of Christ on the cross -- but its "one gospel" framework was fully active in the OT such that even Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven as we see not only in the OT but also pre-cross in Matthew 17 in the case of Moses and Elijah. God is not limited by time - Christ is the lamb of God slain "From the foundation of the world"

And I say that the moral law of God that the New Covenant Gospel writes on the heart - is the one known to Jeremiah and his readers which "includes" the Ten at Sinai where even Deut 5 says regarding the law written on stone -- "he added no more" and where Paul says it is a unit of Law in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:2

And section 19 of both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" appear to agree with that as well.

 

[Deborah D]

I say it is based on the blood of Christ.

The New Covenant (is an agreement) and is ratified in the blood of Christ on the cross -- but its "one gospel" framework was fully active in the OT such that even Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven as we see not only in the OT but also pre-cross in Matthew 17 in the case of Moses and Elijah. God is not limited by time - Christ is the lamb of God slain "From the foundation of the world"

And I say that the moral law of God that the New Covenant Gospel writes on the heart - is the one known to Jeremiah and his readers which "includes" the Ten at Sinai where even Deut 5 says regarding the law written on stone -- "he added no more" and where Paul says it is a unit of Law in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:2

And section 19 of both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" appear to agree with that as well.

Thank you for clarifying. I've never heard this before. Is it SDA doctrine or your own beliefs?

My understanding from scripture is that those in the Old Testament looked forward to the Messiah by faith. Abraham, who preceded the law, believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. According to Galatians, those of us who have faith in Jesus Christ are children of Abraham.

Gal 3:6-14--

Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness, then understand that those who have faith are Abraham’s sons. Now the Scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and told the good news ahead of time to Abraham, saying, All the nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed with Abraham, who had faith.​

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.
​

It seems to me that Paul is saying it's one or the other--law or faith, not both. You either live by the law, trying to obey it, or you live by faith.... Those who live by faith walk according to the Spirit and are guided by Him, not the law. So, I guess you could say that Christians are to be Spirit-led, not law-driven.

Abraham believed God, and this was evident because He obeyed God's voice. I believe that Christians are to live as Abraham did in this respect--hearing and obeying God's voice (through the indwelling Holy Spirit). And of course, His Spirit would never lead us to murder or commit adultery or gossip or take God's name in vain or do anything that is contrary to God's will.

I'm not saying that the law is no longer in effect. I believe that those who refuse God's provision for salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ will be judged and condemned according to the law.

 

[Deborah D]

I say it is based on the blood of Christ.

The New Covenant (is an agreement) and is ratified in the blood of Christ on the cross -- but its "one gospel" framework was fully active in the OT such that even Enoch, Moses and Elijah are in heaven as we see not only in the OT but also pre-cross in Matthew 17 in the case of Moses and Elijah. God is not limited by time - Christ is the lamb of God slain "From the foundation of the world"

And I say that the moral law of God that the New Covenant Gospel writes on the heart - is the one known to Jeremiah and his readers which "includes" the Ten at Sinai where even Deut 5 says regarding the law written on stone -- "he added no more" and where Paul says it is a unit of Law in which "the first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment. Eph 6:2

And section 19 of both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" appear to agree with that as well.

Hey, Bob, you don't have to answer my question about whether your theology is based on Seventh Day Adventist doctrine. I found the answer on an SDA site.

I have to say that I have BIG problems with this SDA theology.

So God offered to the Israelites a covenant of grace and internalized love. But it takes two parties to make a covenant. The good covenant became a defective "old covenant" because the divine-human relationship became dysfunctional due to human failure to have a heart relationship with God. This is clear from Jeremiah 31:31-34, which first mentions the "new covenant":

31:31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

31:32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.

31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the LORD," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.

From this passage we can see that the difference between the "old covenant" and the "new covenant" is not the difference between "law" and "grace." Rather, it is the difference between failure to internalize God's law, resulting in disobedience, and successful internalization of God's law, resulting in obedience. It is harder to break the law when it is internalized; sin against law in the heart would be a "myocardial infraction."

Source: GaneCov
​

So, if all we need to do is "internalize God's law," then why did Jesus have to suffer and die for us? The law cannot save us in any way! It's not even part of the salvation equation.

The Old Covenant is based on the law. According to Jer. 31:32 (quoted above), the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant. This is because the New Covenant is entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. We are saved by grace through faith, period. It's not based on any part of the law, whether external or internal.

Let's look at Galatians 3 one more time. In the following verses, Paul makes NO distinction between external law and internalized law.

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.
.​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hey, Bob, you don't have to answer my question about whether your theology is based on Seventh Day Adventist doctrine. I found the answer on an SDA site.

I have to say that I have BIG problems with this SDA theology.

So God offered to the Israelites a covenant of grace and internalized love. But it takes two parties to make a covenant. The good covenant became a defective "old covenant" because the divine-human relationship became dysfunctional due to human failure to have a heart relationship with God. This is clear from Jeremiah 31:31-34, which first mentions the "new covenant":

31:31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

31:32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD.

31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

31:34 No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the LORD," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.

From this passage we can see that the difference between the "old covenant" and the "new covenant" is not the difference between "law" and "grace." Rather, it is the difference between failure to internalize God's law, resulting in disobedience, and successful internalization of God's law, resulting in obedience. It is harder to break the law when it is internalized; sin against law in the heart would be a "myocardial infraction."

Source: GaneCov
​

So, if all we need to do is "internalize God's law," then why did Jesus have to suffer and die for us? The law cannot save us in any way! It's not even part of the salvation equation.

The Old Covenant is based on the law. According to Jer. 31:32 (quoted above), the New Covenant is not like the Old Covenant. This is because the New Covenant is entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. We are saved by grace through faith, period. It's not based on any part of the law, whether external or internal.

Let's look at Galatians 3 one more time. In the following verses, Paul makes NO distinction between external law and internalized law.

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed. Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. But the law is not based on faith; instead, the one who does these things will live by them. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Everyone who is hung on a tree is cursed. The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles by Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promised Spirit through faith.
.​

The passage you are quoting is not saying what your saying. The passage no where says that people are saved by the works of the law. Try reading it again. I have no idea who this person is but I read the surrounding context in the link you provided. The person is arguing that LOVE was the basis for both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS and is what is mean't by God's law being internalized and written on the heart. Read what you posted with the surrounding Context before and after. The linked post is a little long and it took me some time to find it

God bless

 

[Deborah D]

The passage you are quoting is not saying what your saying. The passage no where says that people are saved by the works of the law. Try reading it again. I have no idea who this person is but I read the surrounding context in the link you provided. The person is arguing that LOVE was the basis for both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS and is what is mean't by God's law being internalized and written on the heart. Read what you posted with the surrounding Context before and after. The linked post is a little long and it took me some time to find it

God bless

Yes, I read it in context and compared it with scripture. It was written by an SDA professor. This was at the beginning of the article.

Roy Gane is Associate Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Languages in the Old Testament Department of the SDA Theological Seminary, Andrews University.
​

I disagree that what you're saying is the point the professor is making because that's not what he said. Have you studied your own church doctrine?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, I read it in context and compared it with scripture. It was written by an SDA professor. This was at the beginning of the article.

Roy Gane is Associate Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Languages in the Old Testament Department of the SDA Theological Seminary, Andrews University.
​

I disagree that what you're saying is the point the professor is making because that's not what he said. Have you studied your own church doctrine?

Funny how we see what we only want to see. I did not get what your claiming out of that article at all. I think you need to re-read it and post what you are claiming. You have not provided anything to say what you are saying the artical said at all.

Context to what you posted here which is just above your quote...

............

Doesn't the idea that obedience to God is necessary contradict the dynamic of salvation by grace (Eph 2:8)? No, because obedience is a gift of grace. According to Romans 5:5, the Holy Spirit pours love into our hearts. Thus, God gives us love, the principle upon which law-keeping is based (Matt 22:36-40), as a gift. The fact that the Holy Spirit was available to people in Old Testament times (see e.g. Neh 9:20) indicates that the gift of love by the Spirit is not restricted to the Christian era.

Deuteronomy 6 informs us that God wanted the Israelites to respond to his prior grace by having an internalized, heart relationship with him. He commanded them: "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. Keep these words that I am commanding you today in your heart" (Deut 6:5-6). Upon this principle of love for God and upon the principle of love for fellow human beings (Lev 19:18) all of God's Old Testament commandments were based (Matt 22:36-40). Only by accepting these principles and the more specific commandments which flowed from them would the Israelites accept God's lordship through which they would continue to be saved. This explains why God said: "You shall keep my statutes and my ordinances; by doing so one shall live: I am the LORD" (Lev 18:5).(12)

So God offered to the Israelites a covenant of grace and internalized love. But it takes two parties to make a covenant. The good covenant became a defective "old covenant" because the divine-human relationship became dysfunctional due to human failure to have a heart relationship with God. This is clear from Jeremiah 31:31-34, which first mentions the "new covenant":

............

As posted earlier he is arguing that both Covenants were based on LOVE and yes this is exactly what he said as quoted above.

You really do need to re-read what you are posting. It does not say what you are claiming at all or does it state anywhere in that article that we are saved by the works of the law.

God bless.

 

[Deborah D]

You really do need to re-read what you are posting. It does not say what you are claiming at all or does it state anywhere in that article that we are saved by the works of the law.

We could go back and forth like this all night (or early morning for me ), but first, I don't think you're understanding the portion of the article I quoted. And second, I never said that the professor was saying that we are saved by works of the law. Although, this is what he implies.

Of course, both covenants are based on LOVE. God is love. Everything he does is based on love.

I take issue with this statement of the professor's: "The good covenant became a defective 'old covenant' because the divine-human relationship became dysfunctional due to human failure to have a heart relationship with God."

The Old Covenant was not defective. It did exactly what God intended it to do--show people their sin, that we fall short of God's perfect standards and, therefore, need a Savior.

The law was never meant to be the basis for establishing a relationship with God. So, the answer to our sin problem is not to internalize the law. The answer to our sin problem is FAITH in Jesus Christ, and faith alone, apart from the law!

Galatians 3:19-26--

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator. Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. Is the law therefore contrary to God’s promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
​

Romans 3:21-28--

But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith. For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

We could go back and forth like this all night (or early morning for me ), but first, I don't think you're understanding the portion of the article I quoted. And second, I never said that the professor was saying that we are saved by works of the law. Although, this is what he implies.

Of course, both covenants are based on LOVE. God is love. Everything he does is based on love

I take issue with this statement of the professor's: "The good covenant became a defective 'old covenant' because the divine-human relationship became dysfunctional due to human failure to have a heart relationship with God."

The Old Covenant was not defective. It did exactly what God intended it to do--show people their sin, that we fall short of God's perfect standards and, therefore, need a Savior.

The law was never meant to be the basis for establishing a relationship with God. So, the answer to our sin problem is not to internalize the law. The answer to our sin problem is FAITH in Jesus Christ, and faith alone, apart from the law!

Galatians 3:19-26--

Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise was made would come. The law was put into effect through angels by means of a mediator. Now a mediator is not for just one person, but God is one. Is the law therefore contrary to God’s promises? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly be by the law. But the Scripture has imprisoned everything under sin’s power, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Before this faith came, we were confined under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith was revealed. The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
​

Romans 3:21-28--

But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith. For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
​

Back and forth about what? I understood what you were saying perfectly. So I went to go and check out your claims in the reference you provided and found your claims not to be true as shown by adding the CONTEXT you left out of your previous post from the person you were quoting from.

The post you were quoting from says nothing you were claiming about the works of the law. Why make claims that no one is making?

The article was about having a heart relationship with God based on LOVE not the law (see previous post quoted) in both the OLD and NEW COVENANTS.

God's LAW has the same purpose in the NEW COVENANT it always had in the OLD COVENANT and that is to give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOUESNESS *ROMANS 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8.

According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNES *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20. According to God's WORD if we break any one of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN *JAMES 2:10-11.

According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD through love. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

It is JESUS that says all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God brother not me *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who then do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW God or men *ROMANS 3:4. Yep I know who I believe. You provide your own words. My words are not my own but God's WORD. It is the Word of God that will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

God bless

 

[Deborah D]

OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD.

There is no "we believe AND..." None at all. We believe, period.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is no "we believe AND..." None at all. We believe, period.

Well that is not true. No one BELIEVES God without FOLLOWING what he says. The devils BELIEVE GOD but do not FOLLOW him, will they be saved? * JAMES 2:18-20; 26. If God asks us not to lie and we lie are we BELIEVING God's Word or not BELIEVING God's WORD *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 16:23?

 

[Deborah D]

Well that is not true. No one BELIEVES God without FOLLOWING what he says. The devils BELIEVE GOD but do not FOLLOW him, will they be saved? * JAMES 2:18-20; 26. If God asks us not to lie and we lie are we BELIEVING God's Word or not BELIEVING God's WORD *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 16:23?

What I'm saying is that for salvation, there is no believe, AND.... The devils don't believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, now do they???

 

[Deborah D]

I found the following quote pertaining to SDA doctrine. I was wondering if anyone in an SDA church who is very familiar with this church doctrine could comment on this. I'm not looking for a general thumbs down reaction. I would like specifics. Thanks in advance.

Investigative Judgment:
One of the unique doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that make the place of that church within evangelical Christianity questionable. First taught in Adventism by Hiram Edson, F.B. Hahn, and O.R.L. Crosier, it was accepted as “present truth” by those who would later become known as Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) after it was confirmed and taught in visions received by Ellen G. White. The doctrine teaches that in the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary Christ is now conducting an investigation into the lives of all who have ever professed belief in Christ. He is judging all their works, by the standard of God’s Law. All those whose lives fail to measure up to the standard of the Law are rejected and condemned as not having true faith. Those whose lives meet that standard and thus manifest the perfect character and righteousness of Christ are recognized as having true faith, and so their sins are “blotted out.” SDAs say, “This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.” Evangelicals believe, and the Bible teaches (Rom. 3:21–26), that God’s justice in saving sinners who trust Jesus to save them is vindicated by the blood of Jesus—His death in their place, in their behalf. Profile (on SDA) available.

Source: Facts and False Doctrines of the Seventh Day Adventist Church - Berean Publishers​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What I'm saying is that for salvation, there is no believe, AND.... The devils don't believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, now do they???

The Devils BELIEVE in God but they do not follow God. No one BELIEVES God without FOLLOWING what he says. The devils BELIEVE GOD but do not FOLLOW him, will they be saved? * JAMES 2:18-20; 26. If God asks us not to lie and we lie are we BELIEVING God's Word or not BELIEVING God's WORD *1 JOHN 2:3-4; MATTHEW 16:23?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I found the following quote pertaining to SDA doctrine. I was wondering if anyone in an SDA church who is very familiar with this church doctrine could comment on this. I'm not looking for a general thumbs down reaction. I would like specifics. Thanks in advance.

Investigative Judgment:
One of the unique doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church that make the place of that church within evangelical Christianity questionable. First taught in Adventism by Hiram Edson, F.B. Hahn, and O.R.L. Crosier, it was accepted as “present truth” by those who would later become known as Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) after it was confirmed and taught in visions received by Ellen G. White. The doctrine teaches that in the Holy of Holies in the Heavenly Sanctuary Christ is now conducting an investigation into the lives of all who have ever professed belief in Christ. He is judging all their works, by the standard of God’s Law. All those whose lives fail to measure up to the standard of the Law are rejected and condemned as not having true faith. Those whose lives meet that standard and thus manifest the perfect character and righteousness of Christ are recognized as having true faith, and so their sins are “blotted out.” SDAs say, “This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.” Evangelicals believe, and the Bible teaches (Rom. 3:21–26), that God’s justice in saving sinners who trust Jesus to save them is vindicated by the blood of Jesus—His death in their place, in their behalf. Profile (on SDA) available.

Source: Facts and False Doctrines of the Seventh Day Adventist Church - Berean Publishers​

No you are looking for a general thumbs down reaction as given away from your linked post. The word of website (men) is not the WORD of GOD. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.

 

[Deborah D]

No you are looking for a general thumbs down reaction as given away from your linked post. The word of website (men) is not the WORD of GOD. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.

This is not helpful at all. I'm trying to find out if that passage fairly represents SDA doctrine. At least I'm asking and not just assuming. When you're ready to have a discussion, let me know.

 

[Deborah D]

I find some of the following statements made by Ellen White, an early leader of the SDA Church, to be quite troubling and unscriptural. To be fair, I can't say that they represent current SDA doctrine. Perhaps someone with knowledge of their doctrine can comment.

“Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God’s law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction.” Ellen G. White, Ministry of Healing, p. 180.

“God requires perfect submission and perfect obedience. Eternal life is worth everything to us. You may come in close connection with God if you will agonize to enter in at the strait gate.” Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 4, p. 218.​

“Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept his Father’s commandments, and there was no sin in him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.” Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, 1888 edition, p.623. [emphasis added]
​

Contrary to Ellen White, the following Bible verses show that we are made righteous apart from the law through faith in Jesus Christ and that we are "justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." They also show that Christians "have been declared righteous by faith."

Romans 3:21-26--"But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus."

Romans 5:1-2--"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I find some of the following statements made by Ellen White, an early leader of the SDA Church, to be quite troubling and unscriptural.

I suggest you prayerfully read your bible more rather then seeking to understand it from the word of website. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. JESUS says those who knowingly follow the traditions and teachings of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

To be fair, I can't say that they represent current SDA doctrine. Perhaps someone with knowledge of their doctrine can comment.

Pulling quotes out of context just like pulling scripture out of context can lead to a different undstanding of what an author is saying.

“Christ lived a life of perfect obedience to God’s law, and in this He set an example for every human being. The life that He lived in this world we are to live through His power and under His instruction.” Ellen G. White, Ministry of Healing, p. 180.

*MATTHEW 5:17-20; HEBREWS 4:15; 1 PETER 2:21-22; PHILIPPIANS 2:13; JOHN 15:1-7 MATTHEW 5:48; JOHN 17:23; HEBREWS 13:20-21; JAMES 1:4

“God requires perfect submission and perfect obedience. Eternal life is worth everything to us. You may come in close connection with God if you will agonize to enter in at the strait gate.” Ellen G. White, Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 4, p. 218.

*MATTHEW 7:13-14; MATTHEW 7:16-23; MATTHEW 22:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 1:26; ROMANS 9:27; ROMANS 11:1-5; REVELATION 12:17; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

“Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept his Father’s commandments, and there was no sin in him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.” Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, 1888 edition, p.623. [emphasis added]

PHILIPPIANS 4:13; 1 CORINTHIANS 10:13; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; REVELATION 12:17; REVELATION 14:12; REVELATION 22:14.

Contrary to Ellen White, the following Bible verses show that we are made righteous apart from the law through faith in Jesus Christ and that we are "justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." They also show that Christians "have been declared righteous by faith." Romans 3:21-26--"But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a propitiation through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus." Romans 5:1-2--"Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have also obtained access through Him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God."

Nothing you have quoted says that our rightouesness comes from the works of the law. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD *PHILIPPIANS 2:13. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

According to God's WORD in the NEW COVENANT God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNES *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

God's 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is when broken *ROMANS 3:20. According to God's WORD if we break any one of God's 10 Commandments we stand guilty before God of SIN *JAMES 2:10-11.

According to God's WORD all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD through love. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50.

It is JESUS that says all those who KNOWINGLY follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God brother not me *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who then do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW God or men *ROMANS 3:4. Yep I know who I believe. You provide your own words. My words are not my own but God's WORD. It is the Word of God that will be our judge come judgment day *JOHN 12:47-48.

Now where is the scripture that says God’s 4th Commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? There is no scripture is there. If there is no scriprture for this tradition why do many follow it?

Are you here to share God's WORD or make false claims? Do you have any scripture to share in relation to the OP or are you just trying to discredit the owner of the OP while he is not here amd cannot respond?

Hope this helps

 

[Dkh587]

The way he’s using “fulfill” is in a way that means to fully preach it...

the Same word is used in Greek, pleroo, in Paul’s letter to the Romans

Romans 14:9
Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


It doesn’t mean he obeyed the law, and now we don’t need to. Paul fulfilling the gospel doesn’t mean we don’t need to obey the gospel any longer.

 

[Deborah D]

I suggest you prayerfully read your bible more rather then seeking to understand it from the word of website. Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29. JESUS says those who knowingly follow the traditions and teachings of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9.

I've been taking your "suggestion" for over 40 years. That's how long I've been reading and studying the Bible, but what does that have to do with SDA doctrine?

Pulling quotes out of context just like pulling scripture out of context can lead to a different undstanding of what an author is saying.

It seems that you are contradicting yourself by implying that the quotes by Ellen White were taken out of context and then supplying many scriptures that SEEM to support what she said. Which is it? Do her quotes represent SDA doctrine or not? I guess you think that they do.

Are you here to share God's WORD or make false claims? Do you have any scripture to share in relation to the OP or are you just trying to discredit the owner of the OP while he is not here amd cannot respond?

You're implying that I'm making false claims??? About what? I've asked some questions about SDA doctrine. I've refuted what seems to be SDA doctrine concerning Christians keeping the Law (mentioned in the OP), and I've shared plenty of scriptures to back my beliefs about the Law -- whole sections of Paul's writing. I could post whole chapters here of what Paul said from Romans and Galatians and many verses from Colossians that show that Christians are not under the law in any way.

You're also implying that I'm trying to discredit the OP? Now, that's a false claim. How am I to know where he is or why he's not posting? I pray that he's okay.

BTW, using so many caps can make your comments very hard to read. Also, caps can imply shouting. You may want to rethink using them so much.