Matthew 5:17-20 and Acts 15:5-29

Ken Rank

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My gospel does not "start" with abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication"

I have not even read the rest. I am simply going to show you your contradiction and move on. Ready? Did I say salvation began with abstaining from things strangled or blood (etc.)? No... I said your WALK did. I agreed to this statement of yours... you even quoted it and tried to use it against me.

You>> Belief in the Jewish messiah is but a starting point to be saved

If I agree with that, which I do... then how can I believe that salvation begins with works found in Acts 15? I can't... and I don't. Salvation is a free gift from God that can't be earned by doing anything other than turning your heart toward Him and accepting His free gift.

The problem is, folks like you can't separate the initial step of salvation from the obedience and works that God expects OF THOSE WHO ARE HIS!

Again... all you had to do was talk to me, ask me... not treat me like a reprobate heathen.

Have a great life.
Ken
 
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His student

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If I agree with that, which I do... then how can I believe that salvation begins with works found in Acts 15?
You can't and had you not said so, and even given me a link so I could read it again, we would have had no problem.

AND - you said nothing about their "walk". The context of the situation in Acts 15 always concerned basic salvation and for you to say now that you were only talking about their walk is disingenuous to say the least.

"Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ......... "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” Acts 15:1&11

Not that I'd agree with following the Torah for saved gentiles in order to be sanctified in general - but if that was all you were talking about then you were commenting on the passage out of context.

You obviously knew better.
I am intrigued by you thinking they are not for you seeing this was a decision that dealt with the salvation of gentiles. Remember the beginning of the chapter... certain Jews (from Beit Shammai) came to Paul and Barnabas and were pushing circumcision unto salvation for gentiles. The Acts 15 letter was in response to THAT and nothing else.

Sorry if I didn't pick up on your supposed mistake right away. If I had - most of this could have been avoided.
 
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jerry kelso

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So, are you saying it is ok, if child is rude? If not, then I think the law is good still. I think the law is not judging, but about not doing bad/wrong/evil things to others, like being rude. Judgment is only what person would deserve and so how bad thing it is to not live as the law tells. But the law is not telling that people must judge, or else…

1213,

1. The law was Holy and good so it is not alright for a child to be rude.

2. The law revealed sin in man and yes it says what not to do because of sin. Thou shalt not kill, steal, or commit fornication etc.
The law had a judgement on kids that disrespected their parents which was stoning such as those that committed adultery or fornication etc.
Today we do not have the curses of the Old Covenant.

2. The spirit of the law can make a person judgemental in the form of legalism.

3. In the age of conscience whatever they did according to their conscience that was later contained in the written law was a law unto themselves Romans 2:13-14.
The Jews had a theocracy with a written law. They will be judged by the written law of Moses.
Today we still have a conscience and the written law is still in the Bible to read.
We also have a higher law of love and the Spirit guides and leads us in truth. We will be judged by secrets of men byJesus Christ according to Paul’s gospel.

4. The question you may be grappling with is what does it mean that the Old Covenant was abolished and why.

5. Moral law has been in each age. Sin has always been wrong according to morals. Moral law has had different contexts in each age.

6. Under the age of conscience there was no written law for murder when Cain killed Abel. It was still wrong and Cain knew it by his conscience and God speaking to him. There was no written judgement.
He asked for protection because he knew everyone would be gunning for him.
Under the age of law it was plainly written Thou shalt not murder or an eye for eye and tooth for tooth would be administered of death by stoning.
Today it is still wrong and we can be in trouble with the government even though we may not get the death penalty.
Also, we can still use the dietary laws and not violate the New Covenant.
The Jews have great practices for making money etc.
So this begs the question about the what’s and why’s of abolishing it.

7. The moral law is always in effect within itself. Sin is always wrong. This was true in every age.
The moral law in the New Covenant doesn’t have the blessing cursing system that the Mosaic Law had. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law which was the Mosaic Law. Galatians 3:13.
We are to obey the moral law because of who we are in Christ and his finished work at the cross.
Also, we are to arm ourselves with the same mind of Christ concerning suffering.
1 Peter 4:1-2.......for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

8. The civil law of the Mosaic law is not made for a righteous man 1 Timothy 1:7-11.
We are not to be suppressed by the civil law as sinners must be who have no self control.

9. The sacrificial law was done away Ephesians 2:14.
The priesthood being changed is made of necessity a change also of the law Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 9 etc.
Hebrews 10:1. The law had a shadow of good things to come.

10. Hebrews 7:18-19 though in the context of the priesthood can sum up the reason for the abolishment of the Mosaic Law.
For there is verily a disanulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
For the law made nothing perfect but the bringing in of a better hope did, by which we draw nigh to God.

11. Romans 7 plainly shows how a woman married to a man is bound to him until he dies. Then she is free to marry another.
She cannot be married to her husband and be married to another for she would be an adulteress.
You cannot live the whole guise of the law and the New Covenant at the same time.
We are dead to the law which was Moses, by the body of Christ.
The law was holy and good and just but because sin took advantage of the commandment and the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be death.
The law couldn’t give you power to perform the commandment only the power of an endless life.

12. I have given you plain word of abolishment of the Mosaic law and plenty of scriptures of why the overall context of the law was done away with in the context of the moral, civil and sacrificial law of Moses.
I gave you the word about the weakness of the commandment and how we are dead to the law by the body of Christ. Jerry Kelso
 
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jerry kelso

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Psalm 105:8 He remembers His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, (9) The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, (10) And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,

So the covenant God made with Abraham, became an oath to Isaac, confirmed to Jacob for a statute, and then to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

The everlasting covenant and the 10 Words/Commandments (the law) are the same thing.

ken,

1. You are not rightly dividing the word.
The everlasting covenant in Psalm 105:8-11 is not the Mosaic Law but the promise of the inheritance of the land.

2. You are falsely trying to link the Abrahamic Covenant, Isaac and Jacob and then link it to Deuteronomy and the Ten Commandments which Moses gave.
I am sorry but that is not correct hermeneutics of scripture.
The Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Law are two different things given by two different people.

3. John 1:17; For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:19; the law was added because of sin, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.
If the Mosaic law was everlasting then that would contradict that it was only till the seed should come.

4. 2 Corinthians 3:13 plainly says that Moses had the veil over his face because Israel couldn’t stand to see the abolishment of what was to come and that could only be the old covenant.
Being blinded by the reading of the old testaments agrees with the same thought which could only be the Mosaic Law.
The whole chapter is about the glory of the Old Testament fading away and even the tablets of stone which was the Ten Commandments is not what Christ or the apostles ministered by, but by the Spirit of the living God in fleshly tables of heart 2 Corinthians 3:3.
Jerry Kelso
 
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~Zao~

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2 Corinthians 3:3
being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables [that are] hearts of flesh.
I posted this elsewhere but it fits here also because of the importance of not falling back to the OT laws but to moving boldly forward to life with Christ.

Christ is our rest, typified by the good land and the ‘another day’ is ‘today’ (if you hear His voice) . Hebrews 4:7-11 He is the rest for our spirit Matthew 11:28-29 and as Caleb and Joshua are examples of, we’re to seek after and enter into that rest that is ’today’.

All the children of Israel shared in the manna, the living water etc but only those two, Caleb and Joshua, overcame and entered the rest. That’s why we’re told to keep pursuing the goal of gaining Christ as the prize Philippians 3:8 Iow, gain the rest and don’t fall back into the law of fear and death.
 
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jerry kelso

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I posted this elsewhere but it fits here also because of the importance of not falling back to the OT laws but to moving boldly forward to life with Christ.

Christ is our rest, typified by the good land and the ‘another day’ is ‘today’ (if you hear His voice) . Hebrews 4:7-11 He is the rest for our spirit Matthew 11:28-29 and as Caleb and Joshua are examples of, we’re to seek after and enter into that rest that is ’today’.

All the children of Israel shared in the manna, the living water etc but only those two, Caleb and Joshua, overcame and entered the rest. That’s why we’re told to keep pursuing the goal of gaining Christ as the prize Philippians 3:8 Iow, gain the rest and don’t fall back into the law of fear and death.

Lorenedd,

1. Great point about the rest in Christ.

2. The law of commandment was holy and good if one performed it but fearful of it wasn’t and incurred the judgement.

3. The law was a schoolmaster to point the Jews to having faith in Christ.
The purification laws were types like baptism etc. They had to understand these things in the light of salvation.
We understand salvation and believe in an on the reality of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ not baptismal regeneration.
If one tries to live the Mosaic law it can cause the struggle. Jerry Kelso
 
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Ken Rank

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but it fits here also because of the importance of not falling back to the OT laws but to moving boldly forward to life with Christ.
It seems so odd to me. Christ followed those laws we say we shouldn't fall into. We are to live as he lived... sort of? And what doesn't fit today... what is it we shouldn't fall back into? I mean, should a man now lay with a man as he would a woman? Should we now steal? Should we begin making idols? What is so wrong with these things that we shouldn't fall back into them?
 
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~Zao~

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It seems so odd to me. Christ followed those laws we say we shouldn't fall into. We are to live as he lived... sort of? And what doesn't fit today... what is it we shouldn't fall back into? I mean, should a man now lay with a man as he would a woman? Should we now steal? Should we begin making idols? What is so wrong with these things that we shouldn't fall back into them?
The verse quoted
2 Corinthians 3:3 being made manifest that ye are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in tables [that are] hearts of flesh.
compares the tablets of stone and ink of the letter to the Spirit of the living God made manifest within the heart of flesh. Iow, the 10 commandments are what is being presented not the 623 other laws. The letter to the Hebrews likens those who know Christ but prefer law to liberty. Not liberty to licentiousness but liberty to serve the living God in a living way.
 
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jerry kelso

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It seems so odd to me. Christ followed those laws we say we shouldn't fall into. We are to live as he lived... sort of? And what doesn't fit today... what is it we shouldn't fall back into? I mean, should a man now lay with a man as he would a woman? Should we now steal? Should we begin making idols? What is so wrong with these things that we shouldn't fall back into them?

ken,

1. One has to look at the system as a whole.

2. All those sins you mentioned were wrong before the Mosaic law came around. But would you say we are still under the age of conscience? We still have a conscience. That age was gentiles.
The written law was specifically given to Jews only in a theocracy to God.
They had to live 630 laws as well as 1000 and more commandments. They had a specific blessing and cursing system which the New Covenant doesn’t have.

3. I have already explained in another post why the moral, ceremonial, and civil laws were done away with.
It has to understood as the whole system in how it operated in that age.
That is why 2 Corinthians 3:13 used abolished and Hebrews 8:6-7 a better covenant built on better promises.
The first covenant was not faultless and that is why there was a second covenant.
that had to be found to take its place.

4. Matthew 5:17-18 was said under the Mosaic law. Jesus only taught the Mosaic law to the Jewish people under the message of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God.
He had to fulfill the Mosaic law until its time and purpose had expired Romans 10:4. Jerry Kelso
 
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Ken Rank

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The verse quoted compares the tablets of stone and ink of the letter to the Spirit of the living God made manifest within the heart of flesh. Iow, the 10 commandments are what is being presented not the 623 other laws. The letter to the Hebrews likens those who know Christ but prefer law to liberty. Not liberty to licentiousness but liberty to serve the living God in a living way.
The law of liberty isn't being free from God's commandments, it is being free from sin and death. Just because the word "law" is used in that verse, doesn't mean it has to be God's commandments. Just saying. :)

Be blessed.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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And guys... all these numbers being thrown around... 623, 630... there are 613 commandments in the OT. Very few applied to most people. Even today, without a Temple, not being a Levitical Priest, (and so forth) only 60 +/- commandments actually apply. So when we talk about how much a burden God's law is... remember that A. He said His law was not a burden and B. you submit to millions of secular laws and don't call them a burden. It makes no sense that the Creator of all things who knows all things has His instructions called a burden and man's laws are just followed!

By the way... there are 1050 commandments in the NT.
 
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~Zao~

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The law of liberty isn't being free from God's commandments, it is being free from sin and death. Just because the word "law" is used in that verse, doesn't mean it has to be God's commandments. Just saying. :)

Be blessed.
Ken
Romans 14:22-23
Keep the belief that you have to yourself—it’s between you and God. People are blessed who don’t convict themselves by the things they approve. But those who have doubts are convicted if they go ahead and eat, because they aren’t acting on the basis of faith. Everything that isn’t based on faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 8:9-12
But watch out or else this freedom of yours might be a problem for those who are weak. Suppose someone sees you (the person who has knowledge) eating in an idol’s temple. Won’t the person with a weak conscience be encouraged to eat the meat sacrificed to false gods? The weak brother or sister for whom Christ died is destroyed by your knowledge. You sin against Christ if you sin against your brothers and sisters and hurt their weak consciences this way.

James 2:11-13
The one who said, Don’t commit adultery, also said, Don’t commit murder. So if you don’t commit adultery but do commit murder, you are a lawbreaker. In every way, then, speak and act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. There will be no mercy in judgment for anyone who hasn’t shown mercy. Mercy overrules judgment.

1 Corinthians 15:14, 18
If Christ hasn’t been raised, then our preaching is useless and your faith is useless (and you are still in your sins) and what’s more, those who have died in Christ are gone forever.

:)
 
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Ken Rank

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Romans 14:22-23
Keep the belief that you have to yourself—it’s between you and God. People are blessed who don’t convict themselves by the things they approve. But those who have doubts are convicted if they go ahead and eat, because they aren’t acting on the basis of faith. Everything that isn’t based on faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 8:9-12
But watch out or else this freedom of yours might be a problem for those who are weak. Suppose someone sees you (the person who has knowledge) eating in an idol’s temple. Won’t the person with a weak conscience be encouraged to eat the meat sacrificed to false gods? The weak brother or sister for whom Christ died is destroyed by your knowledge. You sin against Christ if you sin against your brothers and sisters and hurt their weak consciences this way.

James 2:11-13
The one who said, Don’t commit adultery, also said, Don’t commit murder. So if you don’t commit adultery but do commit murder, you are a lawbreaker. In every way, then, speak and act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. There will be no mercy in judgment for anyone who hasn’t shown mercy. Mercy overrules judgment.

1 Corinthians 15:14, 18
If Christ hasn’t been raised, then our preaching is useless and your faith is useless (and you are still in your sins) and what’s more, those who have died in Christ are gone forever.

:)
I guess that settles the matter, as long as your interpretation of these verses are the only way one can look at them.

Be blessed.
Ken
:)
 
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jerry kelso

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And guys... all these numbers being thrown around... 623, 630... there are 613 commandments in the OT. Very few applied to most people. Even today, without a Temple, not being a Levitical Priest, (and so forth) only 60 +/- commandments actually apply. So when we talk about how much a burden God's law is... remember that A. He said His law was not a burden and B. you submit to millions of secular laws and don't call them a burden. It makes no sense that the Creator of all things who knows all things has His instructions called a burden and man's laws are just followed!

By the way... there are 1050 commandments in the NT.


Ken,

1. Are you talking about 1 John 5: where it says his commandments are not Grievous?
That is New Tesament and not the mosaic law.

2. The law of commandments in the Mosaic law were holy and good within themselves and if acted upon. That was the hard part because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good.
Peter called the law of Moses in Acts a yoke of bondage.
So once again you are trying to say we can perform the Mosaic law under the New Covenant.
The moral laws were before the Mosaic law so why not say we follow the moral law according to the age of conscience? Jerry Kelso
 
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Ken Rank

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Ken,

1. Are you talking about 1 John 5: where it says his commandments are not Grievous?
That is New Tesament and not the mosaic law.

2. The law of commandments in the Mosaic law were holy and good within themselves and if acted upon. That was the hard part because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good.
Peter called the law of Moses in Acts a yoke of bondage.
So once again you are trying to say we can perform the Mosaic law under the New Covenant.
The moral laws were before the Mosaic law so why not say we follow the moral law according to the age of conscience? Jerry Kelso
Brother... you see two bibles (in essence) and I don't. I don't see a break between Matthew and Malachi. I see prophecy stated on one side of the book and fulfilled in the other side. Throughout it, a God that does not change. And... a promise, that what was written on stone, will be on your heart. Again... a promise, repeated many times, that what was on stone will be on your heart. If it was the Law on stone Jerry... and if you want to use the religious word "Mosaic" then fine... if that was what was on stone, then that is what will be on our minds and hearts.

The Law of sin and death is not what you are calling the Mosaic law. The law of sin and death is simply the rule that entered creation when Adam sinned. Before his sin, there was no death... none. He would have lived forever in the garden and in daily face to face fellowship with God. When he sinned, death entered the creation. Sin equals death, and we all will die because of it.

Thankfully, it has lost it's sting because we now have a resurrection hope in Christ's work. None of this negates the commandments. God expects us to obey His will and His will is found in the commandments. The same commandments David called "a Lamp unto my feet." We have a paradigm within modern Christianity that is at odds with the idea that God's Law can be a lamb unto our feet. All I am doing is looking at this through another lens.

If you don't see it... that's fine. I have no desire to argue you into or out of anything. :)

Be blessed.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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Peter called the law of Moses in Acts a yoke of bondage.
And what book, chapter and verse is that statement made?

So once again you are trying to say we can perform the Mosaic law under the New Covenant.
The moral laws were before the Mosaic law so why not say we follow the moral law according to the age of conscience? Jerry Kelso
There is only one law Jerry. You will "NEVER" see God divide the law into ceremonial and moral commandments... all He gave was ONE law. Now, who divided them? Who started calling some things ceremonial and some moral? The answer is man. Tithing, by the way, is filed under ceremonial. Since it is in the 10 commandments... the Sabbath is a moral command and ignored by many Christians today.

This is what I was saying in my last post. The lens you are looking at this through is skewed. The law isn't broken into two divisions and until you stop looking at the topic in a way that God did not look at the topic, we simply won't see eye to eye or even be able to have a fruitful discussion.

Very busy week ahead for me. Might be Sunday or Monday, if I don't get back on tonight, before I can reply.

Blessings.
 
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jerry kelso

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Brother... you see two bibles (in essence) and I don't. I don't see a break between Matthew and Malachi. I see prophecy stated on one side of the book and fulfilled in the other side. Throughout it, a God that does not change. And... a promise, that what was written on stone, will be on your heart. Again... a promise, repeated many times, that what was on stone will be on your heart. If it was the Law on stone Jerry... and if you want to use the religious word "Mosaic" then fine... if that was what was on stone, then that is what will be on our minds and hearts.

The Law of sin and death is not what you are calling the Mosaic law. The law of sin and death is simply the rule that entered creation when Adam sinned. Before his sin, there was no death... none. He would have lived forever in the garden and in daily face to face fellowship with God. When he sinned, death entered the creation. Sin equals death, and we all will die because of it.

Thankfully, it has lost it's sting because we now have a resurrection hope in Christ's work. None of this negates the commandments. God expects us to obey His will and His will is found in the commandments. The same commandments David called "a Lamp unto my feet." We have a paradigm within modern Christianity that is at odds with the idea that God's Law can be a lamb unto our feet. All I am doing is looking at this through another lens.

If you don't see it... that's fine. I have no desire to argue you into or out of anything. :)

Be blessed.
Ken

ken,

1. I have no problem with the Lord being our lamp unto our feet. That is a true statement before the law and after the law.

2. The problem is you refuse to understand Hebrews 8:6-7 in its proper perspective.
When one learns the Old Covenant context then one can understand what the New Covenant built on better promises means to us.

3. All the Bible is for us in the proper perspective.
The yoke of bondage Acts 15:10; Galatians 5:1.
This yoke of bondage was the law of Moses.
Read Galatians 4:21-31 about those who desired to be under the law.
This talks about the allegory of the two covenants which is the Old and New covenants.
The bond woman that represented the Old covenant was cast out. This parallels with the Mosaic law being abolished or set aside etc.
In all due respect you have no argument but you do need to see through the lens of the proper perspective.
Jerry Kelso
 
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Ken Rank

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ken,

1. I have no problem with the Lord being our lamp unto our feet. That is a true statement before the law and after the law.

2. The problem is you refuse to understand Hebrews 8:6-7 in its proper perspective.
When one learns the Old Covenant context then one can understand what the New Covenant built on better promises means to us.

3. All the Bible is for us in the proper perspective.
The yoke of bondage Acts 15:10; Galatians 5:1.
This yoke of bondage was the law of Moses.
Read Galatians 4:21-31 about those who desired to be under the law.
This talks about the allegory of the two countries venants which is the Old and New covenants.
The bond woman that represented the Old covenant was cast out. This parallels with the Mosaic law being abolished or set aside etc.
In all due respect you have no argument but you do need to see through the lens of the proper perspective.
Jerry Kelso
The verse doesn't say the Lord is a lamp unto my feet, it says the law is. We can't change the words to fit out theology brother. As for the rest... I can share an interpretation of Hebrews and Galatians that is in perfect harmony with all of Scripture. But your interpretation has a perfect all knowing God who called the law everlasting... going back on that statement?

Gotta run.
Ken
 
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jerry kelso

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The verse doesn't say the Lord is a lamp unto my feet, it says the law is. We can't change the words to fit out theology brother. As for the rest... I can share an interpretation of Hebrews and Galatians that is in perfect harmony with all of Scripture. But your interpretation has a perfect all knowing God who called the law everlasting... going back on that statement?

Gotta run.
Ken

Ken,

1. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet. I must have got into a rush, but at the same in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

2. Jeremiah 31:31-36 and Hebrews 8:7-12 is plain that God will make a new covenant different than the old covenant in Egypt which was the Mosaic Law.
The New Covenant was ratified at Calvary and will be made with Israel as a nation in the millennial kingdom Romans 11:25-29 and read Joel 2.

3. There were things in the law that were eternal such as the feasts and even the sabbath. But these are for the Jews in the millennial kingdom and under the New Covenant. Right now they are a part of the Church age saints.
The Church saints are not obligated to observe these today Colossians 2: 16-17. Why? Because they are a shadow of things t come.

4. So you are still not understanding the whole context of what it means the Mosaic law was abolished.
Feel free to state your case with scriptural context. Thanks Jerry Kelso
 
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Radagast

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Jesus says that we must keep even the least of the commandments in the Law of Moses (obviously meaning the whole Law)

If you're talking about those parts of the Mosaic Law that Christians see as abolished, Jesus and His disciples did break them. See Matthew 12:1-3 and Mark 7:18-20, for example.
 
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