Matthew 5:17-20 and Acts 15:5-29

[food4thought]

Jesus did not fully obey the laws against working on the Sabbath (Matthew 12) and his enemies tried to stone him for it (John 5:18). Jesus did not approve of the temple cult and tipped over the tables of the money changers and those who sold sacrificial animals (Matthew 21:12). Jesus rebuked the priests for trying to make temple offerings a higher priority than caring for one's father and mother (Mark 7:10-12).

Hi dqhall, thanks for responding. I believe that Jesus got in trouble with the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 12 and John 5:18 not because He broke the Law, but that He did not follow the traditions of the elders, or the crust around the Law that developed by tradition over the centuries. There is no Law that says they can't grab a bite to eat on the sabbath. There is no Law against what the healed man did either, he was not bearing a burden, he was simply going home! What they were doing was not work. The traditions that developed kept the letter of the Law, but ruined the spirit of the Law.

The money changers and sellers of sacrificial animals were not supposed to be in the temple courts. In this case, it was the court of the gentiles... so if a gentile wanted to come and pray at the temple, they were introduced to noise and greed (the money changers and sellers of sacrificial animals were price gouging). Jesus was incensed that His Father's house had become a "den of thieves" instead of a "house of prayers".

Jesus also rebuked the Scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy in Mark 7:10-12 (see also Matthew 23:23-24). It was obvious that they were trying to make themselves look holy by their large offerings while neglecting to honor their father and mother, which was one of the Ten Commandments!

God bless;
Michael

 

[food4thought]

saying that there is not distinction between Greek, Jew, slave, free, male, female since Christ returned. When the law and the prophets were set with Christ on the mount of transfiguration there were no room made for them but Christ alone we were told to listen to. Who do you think that was said to? God repeated it in Hebrews 1 to establish that it was for everyone that came out of the beginning of His works. Levi was/is not the form of worship anymore.

Most of my training was derived from Puritan study.

Good point, LoreneDD! I agree that the Law of Moses has been replaced with obedience to the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

 

[food4thought]

Also I’ve heard that Hebrews and a bunch of other books are excluded from Christianity. Whaa? All scripture is useful for our instruction and if the time is not put in to understand what there talking about that can only be counted as a loss to you. There’s so much worth in Hebrews that relates to the Risen Lord (in fact all of it does).

Yes, I came from a loosely held Acts 2 (or Classical) Dispensationalist view. All of the Epistles are for the church today... the only question I have right now is how do I relate to some of the teachings of Jesus Christ? Matthew 5:19; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 19:16-22; etc. These verses seem to indicate that salvation is by works.

My current default position is that these sayings of Christ are part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is the offer of the Kingdom to Israel (which they rejected by rejecting the King). What the Apostles taught was the Gospel of the grace of God, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and salvation is by faith (works demonstrate our faith, but do not earn us a righteous standing before God, they are our thankful response to what God has already done for us in Christ).

What I am trying to accomplish by this thread is to hear how other traditions understand the works vs faith dichotomy, so I can see if what I believe is actually the best way to reconcile these things.

So far, I am retaining my current view (although I have learned quite a bit).

God bless;
Michael

 

[~Zao~]

Yes, I came from a loosely held Acts 2 (or Classical) Dispensationalist view. All of the Epistles are for the church today... the only question I have right now is how do I relate to some of the teachings of Jesus Christ? Matthew 5:19; Matthew 6:14-15; Matthew 19:16-22; etc. These verses seem to indicate that salvation is by works.

My go-to is 1) loving neighbour Philippians 4:8-9 then acting from 2) loving God Galatians 5:22-23. I can be mad as anything at someone but if I don’t go back to that it’s a downward spiral.

My current default position is that these sayings of Christ are part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is the offer of the Kingdom to Israel (which they rejected by rejecting the King). What the Apostles taught was the Gospel of the grace of God, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and salvation is by faith (works demonstrate our faith, but do not earn us a righteous standing before God, they are our thankful response to what God has already done for us in Christ).

My belief is in the reward and loss of reward system. (a weaving of our own coat of many colours, if you will, in our connection with the Father) Yet what I believe are works are done within and carried out thru His power by yielding our will to God’s. That relates to the above also and is the ongoing practice of sanctification.

What I am trying to accomplish by this thread is to hear how other traditions understand the works vs faith dichotomy, so I can see if what I believe is actually the best way to reconcile these things.

So far, I am retaining my current view (although I have learned quite a bit).

God bless;
Michael

 

[Ken Rank]

But you didn’t answer the question about Peter’s words at the Jerusalem council which states plainly that all are saved in the same way, whether Jew, Gentile, etc.

There is one church, I can argue it's called Israel... regardless, it is made up of anyone from any ethnicity that come to the Lord with a pure heart. The picture for this began in Egypt, when Israel and "foreigners" came out of Egypt and when all was said and done... those foreigners, strangers... non-Israelites.... joined into whichever tribes they traveled with, had the law given to them and were to be treated as native born. Ultimately, salvation has ALWAYS been about the heart and not genes.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken,

1. Speaking of context, what about Psalm 105 8-10 in post 112# which you said dealt with the mosaic law not being abolished.
The context of that passage in verse 11 which has to do with Abraham’s covenant and the inheritance of the land forever.
This has nothing to do with the Mosaic law or it being abolished or not.
Jerry Kelso

Psalm 105:8 He remembers His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, (9) The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His oath to Isaac, (10) And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To Israel as an everlasting covenant,

So the covenant God made with Abraham, became an oath to Isaac, confirmed to Jacob for a statute, and then to Israel as an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

The everlasting covenant and the 10 Words/Commandments (the law) are the same thing.

 

[~Zao~]

Genesis 13 has the promise of the sands of the sea and then to the child of promise is of the stars of the sky in Genesis 15. They are of different inheritances.
What Peter was saying was that for the Jews to be of the inheritance that Jesus was inaugurating all were to be one in Him. Keeping in mind that one is the example of the NT> Galatians 4

Genesis 13
14 The Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Raise your eyes now, and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth; so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted. 17 Rise up, walk through the length and the breadth of the land, for I will give it to you.” 18 So Abram moved his tent, and came and settled by the oaks of Mamre, which are at Hebron; and there he built an altar to the Lord.

Genesis 15
4 But the word of the Lord came to him, “This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir.” 5 He brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed the Lord; and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness.

 

[food4thought]

My go-to is 1) loving neighbour Philippians 4:8-9 then acting from 2) loving God Galatians 5:22-23. I can be mad as anything at someone but if I don’t go back to that it’s a downward spiral.

I agree, I would only add a third commandment of Jesus: love the brethren (John 13:34-35; 15:12, 17). These three commands are the Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). These are the Lord's commandments, as opposed to the Father's commandments (the OT Law... see John 15:10 for the distinction).

My belief is in the reward and loss of reward system. (a weaving of our own coat of many colours, if you will, in our connection with the Father) Yet what I believe are works are done within and carried out thru His power by yielding our will to God’s. That relates to the above also and is the ongoing practice of sanctification.

Totally agree. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

[food4thought]

Genesis 13 has the promise of the sands of the sea and then to the child of promise is of the stars of the sky in Genesis 15. They are of different inheritances.

Could you elaborate on that... I am not sure I follow. Who are the two inheritances for? One for the gentiles and one for the descendants of Israel? That doesn't make sense to me as the Genesis 13 promise is for the land. We do not inherit the land that was promised to Israel.

 

[Dkh587]

And what are the commandments of Jesus Christ? Love God, love neighbor, love the brethren.

Love God = trusting in Him & obeying His commandments, including to love your neighbor. Loving God & loving your neighbor as yourself aren’t new commandments.

 

[Dkh587]

What are his commandments?

The 10 commandments were given to the Hebrew people whom God had rescued out of Egypt. However, because Jesus said they can be summed up in 2 commandments - love God and love your neighbour as yourself - they are important for us too. Other commands that were given to the Hebrew people were about how they had to make atonement for their sin (sacrifice) and how they were to live as God's holy - separate - people. That meant not intermarrying, not eating food that was deemed to be unclean or wearing clothes made with mixed fibres, not mixing with Gentiles who were outside of the covenant, worshipping ONE God and not many, as their neighbours did - being different and set apart from them.
But Jesus has fulfilled all that. HE is the sacrifice by which we are forgiven, cleansed and made right with God. HE makes us holy - we are set apart from the world if we belong to him and love God more than anything else. He told us that it is not food which goes into our mouths which makes us unclean, but the attitudes which come from our hearts. And he taught that God loves, heals and wants all people to know him - he spoke to a Samaritan women, travelled through Samaria and one of his most famous parables featured a Samaritan. He also healed a Syro-Phoenician woman and a Roman centurion's servant. He touched Gentiles, those with skin conditions, those who were bleeding and dead people - none of which tainted him or made him a sinner or lawbreaker, though the Pharisees clearly thought otherwise - and he healed on the Sabbath.
Jesus then gave us a NEW commandment; to love as he loves us. We cannot love with the pure, Agape, divine love that God has for us unless we have first received this love from him. John says, "we love because he first loved us", 1 John 4:19.

His commandments are those contained in the 10 commandments, plus the other commandments given in His law

Exodus 20:4-6

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHWH thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Notice that loving God and obeying His commandments is contrasted with people who hate him, meaning those who don’t obey His commandments.

Loving God = obeying His commandments

Hating God = disobeying His commandments

 

[~Zao~]

Could you elaborate on that... I am not sure I follow. Who are the two inheritances for? One for the gentiles and one for the descendants of Israel? That doesn't make sense to me as the Genesis 13 promise is for the land. We do not inherit the land that was promised to Israel.

One is to the nation of Israel, as the sand of the sea. The other to the child of promise, the stars of the sky. One to those of the law Hagar, one to those of Grace, Sarah.

 

[~Zao~]

I agree, I would only add a third commandment of Jesus: love the brethren (John 13:34-35; 15:12, 17). These three commands are the Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). These are the Lord's commandments, as opposed to the Father's commandments (the OT Law... see John 15:10 for the distinction).



Totally agree. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

It’s an easy formula for abiding.

 

[food4thought]

One is to the nation of Israel, as the sand of the sea. The other to the child of promise, the stars of the sky. One to those of the law Hagar, one to those of Grace, Sarah.

Ahhh… I see. I had it backward. I'll have to meditate on that idea.

 

[food4thought]

Love God = trusting in Him & obeying His commandments, including to love your neighbor. Loving God & loving your neighbor as yourself aren’t new commandments.

See John 15:10 for the distinction between Christ's commandments (love God, love neighbor, love the brethren) and the Father's commandments (the entire Mosaic Law).

 

[Strong in Him]

His commandments are those contained in the 10 commandments, plus the other commandments given in His law

Exodus 20:4-6

Which were given to the Hebrew people; those he rescued from slavery in Egypt, led across the Red Sea and fed, and looked after, in the wilderness. They were given festivals, such as Passover and the feast of tabernacles, to remind them of that time.

I don't know about you, but I was not rescued from slavery in Egypt - neither were any of my ancestors. But I have been rescued from eternal death and slavery to sin by Jesus, my Saviour.

Notice that loving God and obeying His commandments is contrasted with people who hate him, meaning those who don’t obey His commandments.

Jesus said that if we love him we will keep HIS commandments. HE has given us a new commandment, to love as he loves us. We cannot keep his commandment to love unless we have received his love - John says "we love because he first loved us", 1 John 4:19. We need God's divine agape love - which is the fruit of the Spirit - in our lives, otherwise it is impossible to love as Jesus loved.

Nowhere did Jesus say, "Gentiles who believe in me have to keep the Jewish law" - which he has fulfilled anyway.

 

[1213]

1213,
....
If a child sassed their Father or Mother they were to be stoned.
This was God’s commandment and the law was Holy and Good.
However, you might be glad we don’t have to follow this commandment.
...

So, are you saying it is ok, if child is rude? If not, then I think the law is good still. I think the law is not judging, but about not doing bad/wrong/evil things to others, like being rude. Judgment is only what person would deserve and so how bad thing it is to not live as the law tells. But the law is not telling that people must judge, or else…

 

[His student]

in that same short post you claim I preach a false gospel when you have NO CLUE what my definition of the gospel is. So you make a false accusation without information (which runs the risk of bearing false witness)

I thought you made it quite clear what your definition of the gospel is.
His student said: ↑
Belief in the Jewish messiah is but a starting point to be saved

Bravo... exactly.

By asking that a new gentile believer in Yeshua to abstain from these things, you were "setting them apart" from their pagan brethren. They clearly were then to be taught what was expected of them, they were to "STUDY to show themselves approved as workman unto God."
I conclude then, that the letter in Acts 15 was the starting point, not the finish line.
Peace to you. Ken

You believe that the suggestions made in Acts 15 are binding on us and you believe that they are but a starting point for salvation.

You are teaching a false gospel plain and simple. My admittedly strong, snide comments to you seem to me to be not uncalled for and perhaps even appropriate for one whom the Lord says is preaching an accursed rendition of the basics of salvation.

But you are correct in one thing. We need not and probably should not pursue this farther.

If others want to have a tit for tat with you while ignoring the basic problem with your doctrine (namely your complete misunderstanding of the simple gospel) that's up to them.

In all sincerity, I hope to see you on the other side of this life. But unfortunately I have my doubts that that will be so. You don't seem to have truly believed on Christ and His work at Calvary as your hope for salvation.

 

[Ken Rank]

I thought you made it quite clear what your definition of the gospel is.
His student said: ↑
Belief in the Jewish messiah is but a starting point to be saved


You believe that the suggestions made in Acts 15 are binding on us and you believe that they are but a starting point for salvation.

You are teaching a false gospel plain and simple. My admittedly strong, snide comments to you seem to me to be not uncalled for and perhaps even appropriate for one whom the Lord says is preaching an accursed rendition of the basics of salvation.

But you are correct in one thing. We need not and probably should not pursue this farther.

If others want to have a tit for tat with you while ignoring the basic problem with your doctrine (namely your complete misunderstanding of the simple gospel) that's up to them.

In all sincerity, I hope to see you on the other side of this life. But unfortunately I have my doubts that that will be so. You don't seem to have truly believed on Christ and His work at Calvary as your hope for salvation.

I believe works unto salvation, is that what you think I believe? Proof then, that you have no idea what I believe and you've made some bizarre assumptions. Assumptions that could have been avoided had you simply talked to me instead of insulting ny intelligence and heart for God.

That aside...the gospel is more than just salvation and was heard by Abraham and by Israel at Sinai and was preached by messiah before his death. Your definitions are simply too narrow and dogmatic.

 

[His student]

Your definitions are simply too narrow and dogmatic.

And on that narrow peg I will hang my faith and salvation.

My gospel does not "start" with abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication".

If you don't believe that it does then you shouldn't have said that it does.

Those things and others may well be good things to refrain from and I will try my best to do so.

But the "start" and finish of my salvation is the life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God.

Look - You're the one who engaged me here by taking exception to my statement to another person as to the very clear reason for James and the council's forwarding that letter as it was written.

You insisted that those things from Judaism and much more to follow were being laid on the gentile believers in order for them to be saved.

What I laid out is the real and proper interpretation of the intent of the Holy Spirit in giving us that passage. What you lay out is balderdash and amounts to a false gospel and way to salvation. That is true whether we are talking about "narrow" salvation (as in how to get to Heaven and avoid Hell) or a more comprehensive meaning to the word.

God's sanctification of those gentiles who "have been" saved through simple faith in this day and age does not include necessarily digging around in the Torah and practicing things we find there - however beneficial they may be to us.

God's way of salvation in the narrow sense is a simple faith in the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary on our behalf. That faith was started by God and will be finished by God.

God's way of salvation in the broader sense or sanctification is simply yielding to the Holy Spirit when He convicts us of sin.

If you believe other than those concepts - you're full of beans.

If you agree to that we don't have a problem and most of this has been my mistaken opinion as to what you were saying - (other than your thin skin at my saying "well duhhh when you stated the obvious in your post to me in a condescending and argumentative manner).