Matthew 25 Jesus Returns In Final Judgment, Eternal Kingdom

[Truth7t7]

Not new...though I knew my question might make me sound as though I am. It's just that some believe Christ will reign for 1000 years on earth when He returns and so their "second coming" is quite a different conception than ours!
Happy to be in agreement with someone on these points...a welcome change! (I hope we are truly in agreement as it seems at first glance!)

Do you believe the AOD and great tribulation were fulfilled in 66-70AD, or are these future events?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Do you believe the AOD and great tribulation were fulfilled in 66-70AD, or are these future events?

I believe this life...pre-Christ's Return is the great tribulation. I will speak only where the Bible speaks...Scripture as you know is quite silent on dates.
As for AOD...what does this acronym stand for and I'll answer.

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe this life...pre-Christ's Return is the great tribulation. I will speak only where the Bible speaks...Scripture as you know is quite silent on dates.
As for AOD...what does this acronym stand for and I'll answer.

AOD- Abomination Of Desolation, Daniels Matthew 24:15

The great tribulation as seen in Matthew 24:21 is a ongoing tribulation and not a specific future event?

Do you believe in a literal future human man of sin as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

Do you believe in future human men as the beast and false prophet as see in revelation?

Do you believe the "two witnesses" in revelation 11 will be literal human prophets returned?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

AOD- Abomination Of Desolation, Daniels Matthew 24:15

The great tribulation as seen in Matthew 24:21 is a ongoing tribulation and not a specific future event?

Do you believe in a literal future human man of sin as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?

Do you believe in future human men as the beast and false prophet as see in revelation?

Do you believe the "two witnesses" in revelation 11 will be literal human prophets returned?

AOD...
One can see that the desolation of the present day temple...read The present day Church...has happened on many levels and certainly signals the end drawing near...though the passages of Daniel and some of Matthew 24 coincide with the destruction of the temple as well. Therefore one is left to wonder...especially without further study...if Matthew 24 pertains to both ends...end of the temple of Jerusalem as well as the destruction of the world on the Last Day. Re-read 24; it reads well for prophesy of the temple, but goes on to speak of the sun and moon not giving light immediately after. Doesn't fit for the temple, doesn't fit well for last day either though b/c of the warnings to flee...which won't help for Last Day. Perhaps, and only perhaps, this then is our clue that the temple's destruction and the end of the world are both melded here for an end-time prophesy. ???
Matthew 24:21...
I am very cautious on answering end times questions because end time prophesy is given to us in riddle-like in fashion in Revelation, but I will say that my thought on this passage is that the great distress happens right before the end...The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord...terrible for the unbeliever; Great for believers for our salvation is drawing nigh at that time, right! (I am aware that many attribute this scenario to the destruction of the temple.)
II Thessalonians 2:3...
He is a man of lawlessness...but more than that...he spreads lawlessness; influences others to become lawless...this is the work of Satan himself, so some say it IS Satan in human guise. On the other hand we have the Ephesians 6:11-12 passages...
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can stand against the schemes of the Devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. EHV Bible (new Translation btw)
With these passages coupled with the wars seen in Daniel 11 (especially as pertains to the King who exalts himself) one can reasonably infer that these are spiritual forces of evil impacting human conduct.
NO, I do not believe in future men as true beasts...there is a lot of symbolism in the book of Revelation and Jesus Himself points this out in the book of Revelation. Also, if you are a literalist examine the book of Proverbs chapter 1 which points out that there are riddles and sayings of the wise in the Bible and the book of Proverbs as well as the entire Bible is beneficial in acquiring the knowledge and wisdom for the understanding of these riddles and saying.
No, I do not believe the two witnesses are two men. I believe them to be Jesus and the Word or Jesus and the true church...the church made up of those known by God...an invisible church.
This is a little hither-skither...apologies in advance. Look forward to your thoughts.

 

[Ronald]

Please explain what takes place at the Appearance/Revealing of Jesus Christ in the verses below?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30, Malachi 3:2

1. Wrath, vengeance, judgment on all unbelievers with fire and brimstone.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed on a particular day and references Christ's appearance also on a particular day with destruction as well.
3. Who can stand (survive) the day of His coming?

Obviously He appears on a particular day in time, but the events within the Great Tribulation occur over 3 1/2 years, they overlap and accumulate. In several places it confirms this in different ways (42 months), (1260 days), a time, times and a half of time. In Rev. 20 it goes into detail about how Christ physically rules on David's throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years - up close and personal. This is paradise reborn, literally. The Bible gives many details about how sin and evil are put down, removed from earth and Satan and his horde locked up for 1,000 years and then after, released for a short period of time to tempt men who have been born during this time. More details about a 2nd resurrection, a 2nd death are given. The lions, wolves, cobras are at peace, grazing in the fields with children playing with them. This is the paradise that was lost and now reborn. It is the culmination of God's plan, to rid the world of sin and evil and unbelievers as well.
Why would you want to discard that, distort, symbolize it to mean something abstract. These a literal events. This is a world we have been yearning for, a one world religion with our King at the helm. Why would you distort that?

 

[Truth7t7]

AOD...
One can see that the desolation of the present day temple...read The present day Church...has happened on many levels and certainly signals the end drawing near...though the passages of Daniel and some of Matthew 24 coincide with the destruction of the temple as well. Therefore one is left to wonder...especially without further study...if Matthew 24 pertains to both ends...end of the temple of Jerusalem as well as the destruction of the world on the Last Day. Re-read 24; it reads well for prophesy of the temple, but goes on to speak of the sun and moon not giving light immediately after. Doesn't fit for the temple, doesn't fit well for last day either though b/c of the warnings to flee...which won't help for Last Day. Perhaps, and only perhaps, this then is our clue that the temple's destruction and the end of the world are both melded here for an end-time prophesy. ???
Matthew 24:21...
I am very cautious on answering end times questions because end time prophesy is given to us in riddle-like in fashion in Revelation, but I will say that my thought on this passage is that the great distress happens right before the end...The Great and Terrible Day of the Lord...terrible for the unbeliever; Great for believers for our salvation is drawing nigh at that time, right! (I am aware that many attribute this scenario to the destruction of the temple.)
II Thessalonians 2:3...
He is a man of lawlessness...but more than that...he spreads lawlessness; influences others to become lawless...this is the work of Satan himself, so some say it IS Satan in human guise. On the other hand we have the Ephesians 6:11-12 passages...
Put on the full armor of God, so that you can stand against the schemes of the Devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. EHV Bible (new Translation btw)
With these passages coupled with the wars seen in Daniel 11 (especially as pertains to the King who exalts himself) one can reasonably infer that these are spiritual forces of evil impacting human conduct.
NO, I do not believe in future men as true beasts...there is a lot of symbolism in the book of Revelation and Jesus Himself points this out in the book of Revelation. Also, if you are a literalist examine the book of Proverbs chapter 1 which points out that there are riddles and sayings of the wise in the Bible and the book of Proverbs as well as the entire Bible is beneficial in acquiring the knowledge and wisdom for the understanding of these riddles and saying.
No, I do not believe the two witnesses are two men. I believe them to be Jesus and the Word or Jesus and the true church...the church made up of those known by God...an invisible church.
This is a little hither-skither...apologies in advance. Look forward to your thoughts.

Your views would be close to that of a partial preterist. They see the AOD and great tribulation fulfilled in 66-70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem, they see the antichrist/beast/false prophet/two witnesses as symbolic and not literl future humans. They see a future second coming, resurrection and final judgment on the day of the Lord.

I see them as literal future human men antichrist, beast, false prophet, two withesses, this being our differences.

 

[Ronald]

Ok your post trib millennial kingdom?

Mid-Trib. I firmly believe the last trumpet is number 7. Last means last in a series or trumpets. If it was before the 7 trumpets, it would not be the last. If it was after, it would be the 8th.

How do you account for Matthew 25:31-46?

Literally, when He comes, He will sit on His throne of glory and all the people of all nations will be divided, the saved eternally and unsaved destroyed. What is the problem?

verses 31-32 Jesus Returns with the angels, nations gathered before the throne for judgment.

check

verse 34 the eternal kingdom is presented, to the righteous.

check

verse 41 the eternal lake of fire, the wicked are judged.

OK, the word "eternal" comes from aion or aionios. This word has variable meanings. When applied to temporal things, they can only mean temporal, (age, ages, lifetime(s), generation(s), epoch). Eternal therefore should only be used pertaining to God, His domain and our salvation. Notice in the NKJ version the same word has different meanings (everlasting punishment and eternal life.) Everlasting actually means age-lasting or age-during. Destroyed means to put an end to. You can't burn paper for years and years or anything else. It would be like an imperishable perishing or indestructible destruction -- it is contradictory. The Lake of Fire is a physical Lake and people who are physically resurrected are thrown in their and destroyed. A visual picture of this would be likened to Golum, in the Lord of the Rings, who fell into the lava river in the volcano. You burn and are destroyed.
All created physical things "will pass away" and be destroyed. Hence the New Heaven and New Earth.

verse 47 the righteous obtain "Eternal Life" and enter the "Eternal Kingdom" seen in verse 34

check

Your gonna have to get rid of the word "Eternal" seen in verse 46, to make your teaching of a earthly millennial kingdom work?

We will live eternally - Remember in Rev. 20:6 is says, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection, Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."
Oh I see, you think there is a limitation here of a thousand years? Reigning as priests over the remnant Jews who were protected during the great tribulation. The 144K virgin males will procreate with an equal amount of females and they will repopulate the planet. We will not procreate, we will be priests. People will once again live for hundreds of years. They are the ones who will be tested because many of them were not born again believers.

I believe you will see the final judgment and eternal kingdom, at the second coming of Jesus Christ with the angels, as is clearly taught in Matthew 25:31-46

Your view has no Millennial Kingdom. Why does the Bible say differently. You must distort scripture: Rev. 20:1-9 ???

Yes Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same judgment, same lake of fire, exactly the same event

Disagree.

 

[Truth7t7]

1. Wrath, vengeance, judgment on all unbelievers with fire and brimstone.
2. Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed on a particular day and references Christ's appearance also on a particular day with destruction as well.
3. Who can stand (survive) the day of His coming?

Obviously He appears on a particular day in time, but the events within the Great Tribulation occur over 3 1/2 years, they overlap and accumulate. In several places it confirms this in different ways (42 months), (1260 days), a time, times and a half of time. In Rev. 20 it goes into detail about how Christ physically rules on David's throne in Jerusalem for 1,000 years - up close and personal. This is paradise reborn, literally. The Bible gives many details about how sin and evil are put down, removed from earth and Satan and his horde locked up for 1,000 years and then after, released for a short period of time to tempt men who have been born during this time. More details about a 2nd resurrection, a 2nd death are given. The lions, wolves, cobras are at peace, grazing in the fields with children playing with them. This is the paradise that was lost and now reborn. It is the culmination of God's plan, to rid the world of sin and evil and unbelievers as well.
Why would you want to discard that, distort, symbolize it to mean something abstract. These a literal events. This is a world we have been yearning for, a one world religion with our King at the helm. Why would you distort that?

Revelation 20 does not teach Jesus Christ will rule physically on a throne in Jerusalem on this earth.

However Jesus warned the believer against this false teaching in Matthew 24:23-27

There are no teachings in the old testament that teach of a earthly millennial kingdom.
All instances of kingdoms presented represent the "Eternal Kingdom" not a earthly millennial with mortal humans present.

isaiah 65 & 66 Eternal, Ezekiel 47 Eternal, Zechariah 14 Eternal

You agree the lake of fire judgment is seen in Matthew 25 in verse 41, and eternal life is obtained by the righteous, in verse 46, then you believe mortal humans will live beyond this judgment procreating with females, I strongly disagree.

 

[Ronald]

Revelation 20 does not teach Jesus Christ will rule physically on a throne in Jerusalem on this earth.

Care to elaborate on your interpretation of verses 1-9?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Your views would be close to that of a partial preterist. They see the AOD and great tribulation fulfilled in 66-70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem, they see the antichrist/beast/false prophet/two witnesses as symbolic and not literl future humans. They see a future second coming, resurrection and final judgment on the day of the Lord.

I see them as literal future human men antichrist, beast, false prophet, two withesses, this being our differences.

OK, I consider myself an amillennialist. Main theology on end time being all you NEED to know is the Gospel versions of end time as well as II Thessalonians and I Corinthians 15.
Sounds as though you remain committed to a very literal read of Scripture. I started out that way and came to Revelation which contradicted the bodies of knowledge found in the areas I listed above as a need to know. There is no literal 1000 year reign on earth. So I re-read Revelation many times trying to make sense of it. Its language is so different from the other readings that it was obvious it was not to be taken literally. I prayed and waited for the Lord to enlighten me in my readings...meanwhile I knew I'd do just fine with the teachings which were straightforward. I hope you will pray about it and leave room to grow...but carefully.
If you re-read Proverbs and elsewhere you read of the Prostitute and the Harlot...what are they? unfaithful ones to their husbands...in Christian terms these are then unfaithful Teachers and Preachers and their followers all unfaithful to Christ. If you read about Daniel's interpretation of his dream you see the beasts all represented something right? This too is a Revelation as was Daniel's. It needs to be made plain and it requires good sound Bible knowledge; straight forward in nature; principles of the Bible, to solve or rather interpret the Revelation. The key is never to veer from the key basic Truths...it seems some get caught up in intrigues of all sorts. You can do it!
When looking at numbers, find them in the Bible and see how they fit with the text of Revelation. When you are finished you will be thrilled that God gave us this....doesn't add anything new, it words it all differently though and so we see it or even feel it in a new way!

 

[Ronald]

There are no teachings in the old testament that teach of a earthly millennial kingdom.

The Old Testament Prophecies of Christ's Millennial Kingdom

 

[Truth7t7]

Care to elaborate on your interpretation of verses 1-9?

Revelation 20:1-6 represents the Lords spiritual realm, there is no time in the spiritual realm, A Thousand years is a day " No Earthly Time" Thousand is not literal.
2 Peter 3:8, Psalms 50:10

In verses 1-6 you see 100% spiritual beings and realm, angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, there is no physical earthly kingdom seen, none "A Fairy Tale Teaching"

Thats why this teaching turns to the old testament trying to create a earthly millennial kingdom in Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47, Zechariah 14 for example, these chapters all represent the "Eternal Kingdom" not a earthly one.

This non-literal 1000 year reign is from the Lords earthly ministry to the second advent, if a future tribulatuon saint dies one week before the second advent, he enters the non-literal 1000 year reign.

 

[Truth7t7]

throughfireytrial:

OK, I consider myself an amillennialist. Main theology on end time being all you NEED to know is the Gospel versions of end time as well as II Thessalonians and I Corinthians 15.
Sounds as though you remain committed to a very literal read of Scripture. I started out that way and came to Revelation which contradicted the bodies of knowledge found in the areas I listed above as a need to know. There is no literal 1000 year reign on earth. So I re-read Revelation many times trying to make sense of it. Its language is so different from the other readings that it was obvious it was not to be taken literally. I prayed and waited for the Lord to enlighten me in my readings...meanwhile I knew I'd do just fine with the teachings which were straightforward. I hope you will pray about it and leave room to grow...but carefully.
If you re-read Proverbs and elsewhere you read of the Prostitute and the Harlot...what are they? unfaithful ones to their husbands...in Christian terms these are then unfaithful Teachers and Preachers and their followers all unfaithful to Christ. If you read about Daniel's interpretation of his dream you see the beasts all represented something right? This too is a Revelation as was Daniel's. It needs to be made plain and it requires good sound Bible knowledge; straight forward in nature; principles of the Bible, to solve or rather interpret the Revelation. The key is never to veer from the key basic Truths...it seems some get caught up in intrigues of all sorts. You can do it!
When looking at numbers, find them in the Bible and see how they fit with the text of Revelation. When you are finished you will be thrilled that God gave us this....doesn't add anything new, it words it all differently though and so we see it or even feel it in a new way!

earlychristianwritings.com

I believe reading the early church fathers will help a bit Justin Martyr, Iranaeus, Hippolytus should be good, they were right on target.

They all saw a future literal human man as the Antichrist, and I believe Iranaeus and Hippo saw the two witnesses as literal prophets returned.

They believed as we do, in the 2nd advent, resurrection and judgment of all, eternal kingdom.

Post #74 above is my belief on Revelation 20

 

[Truth7t7]

The Old Testament Prophecies of Christ's Millennial Kingdom

Are you Simon Medhurst the Author?

please post your old testament witnesses supporting your earthly millennial kingdom claim, im waiting

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Matthew 19:28

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

King James Version (KJV)

Don't know where you stand, but this passage is supportive of the doctrine that this earthly life is the Great Tribulation.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Psalms 22:28

“For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.”
Psalms 22:27

“All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.”

Bible speak for the both the idea that Israel, all true believers, will once again have peace with God...that and every knee shall bow on that Last Day.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Revelation 2:27

“And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

Yes, He is currently on His throne and ruling...all according to Scripture.