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Matthew 24, verse by verse - Fulfilled

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, May 23, 2014.

  1. Interplanner

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    1, on their questions. They might always ask the wrong questions, you know. And that's OK. But he gives the right answers. You sound like you're concerned that he's giving Judaisms answers! I assure you, he is not.

    With the momentum of his warnings during that final week in Jerusalem about what what happen to that generation, there is no reason to leap to a future that was irrelevant to them, yet speak of it as though direly relevant to them! That is the great irrationality of popular eschatology today, which is very un-apostolic.

    He had set up his kingdom, but few could see it ('oida')--to comprehend. That's why questions about the nation of Israel and its kingdom were scuttled, nipped in the bud, in Acts 1. It's over. It doesn't exist in that form anymore. A new people is working at the vineyard now (the parable of the tenants). Actually, to be consistent with Gal 3, etc., it never did exist in the form which Judaism sought to replace it it with.

    2, the world. 'Gaia' often means the land of Israel in the gospels. Cp. with Mt 10 and instructions to the 70 missionary prototypes. Likewise Mt 5's 'salt of the earth/land' meant: those of you who follow my teaching will at least give Israel a chance of being preserved, instead of risking it in a freedom fight against Rome.

    3, the end. Judaism knew the end of their age was near, but not how, nor now it would turn into Messiahs. So end is the end of the existing administration, the childtrainer (Gal 4), etc., because those who have faith are now 'adopted as sons, by the Spirit.' Unfortunately, the end would be stormy, and there was a party, the zealots, who would try like heck to make it last, believing that God was going to vanquish occupying forces in an apocalyptic battle in which a pure Israel would emerge as the champion.

    Besides the various NT references saying it was that end, Josephus knew from Daniel that the city and sanctuary would end due to a foolish rebellion (he was a trained priest), and Caiaphas tried to save Israel from destruction by putting Christ to death (Jn 11 and 18).

    4, the coming. This sets up an innovated meaning for coming. Yes, it could be the coming of judgement on Israel because that is called a day of visitation, though a dark one. It fulfills punishment per "all that is written" says Lk 21. But Mt 24B also sounds very much like the end of the whole world would happen right after the DofJ (Paul, in Lk 21, is seamless about this), while also allowing for delay.

    5, the delay. The delay of the 2nd coming in world judgement is expressed in saying only the Father knew the time for 'game over' and the parable of the attentive servants. He could come at the beginning of the night, but might come as late as the next day.

    6, superlative language. All the terms of Mt24A are relative to Jerusalem 586. See Dr. Zens "the time of unsurpassed horror" thread for that. They are not meant to compare with Islam's 274M kills, or the Black Death of 1500s Europe, or the year in the 1890s when London had blood sunrises and sunsets due to the eruption of Krakatoa (by the way, why doesn't the Rev mention Pompeii if it was written in 95?...) As the expression says (spoken in 33 AD Judea) the DofJ would be the worst thing to happen in that land up to that point in history, and not to be repeated. The idea of it happening 3x to Jerusalem would sort of gag me, honestly.
     
  2. riverrat

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    I do not see this standard question of Judaism in Jn 12:34. They asked two questions: "How sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up?" Seems they asked this question because they did not understand the term "lifted up" to be the resurrection or because they did not understand the resurrection. The second question was "Who is this Son of Man?"
    I do not see either question to be "how to relate this age and Messiahs?"
     
  3. Interplanner

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    They thought from Judaism (the Law) that he was to come reign forever. He did come in a kingdom but not as they knew it.

    With his coming out of the way, the remaining question is 'what happens to the end or at the end of the existing.' It was to be a horrible event, and there was no getting out of it.

    Glad you caught how the resurrection itself is the lifting up (besides what happens in it); it matches what Acts 13 is saying about the resurrection.

    So: his age does come, apart from their preconceptions, and the previous age gives way in a horrible crash and burn.

    It is still true today that Judaism often does not seek anything other than Messiah's age. I don't think they've quite got the idea, but they definitely don't think of a return.

    The Mt 24 questions are answered, and the 2nd coming is added on and is not Judaic; that is the key thing to notice about it. Whatever had to do with Judaism was wrapped up in the DofJ and the birth of the church.
     
  4. riverrat

    riverrat Newbie

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    When did Christ return to earth and set up his heavenly kingdom?
     
  5. KrAZeD

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    1) it's not that I worry how the answers are given. It's who gave them, his inability to deceive or mislead. I go with the thought that he was giving a prophecy for what he felt was pertinent. Judaism aside.

    We know in chp23 he was teaching, and he gave their destruction outline in 35-36. We also gather from 23 he was chastising them leading up to what was said in 35-36.

    Now we can deduce he most likely was a little heated when he finished with verse 39. Him going outside with his disciples and his disciples being in "shock" at what he just said would ensue why they were showing him the "grounds". I and others can deduce that because of their "marvel" he outright told them verse 24:2. But to get to the mount, that's currently a 20-30min walk but for easement sake will use 10-15 min walk for Jesus.

    In 10-15 minutes one can calm down, one can clear their thoughts. So when the disciples asked it could have been with a different motive not given in text, or Jesus could have felt like skipping the when of their temple destruction.

    Though I was showed something interesting today I seemingly overlooked, in 23:39 what does Jesus say? If their not to see Jesus again till they say blessed is he that come in the name of The Lord, then a disciple asking 24:3 "when shall these things G" would solidify a teaching of "our" time (distant future(as in "our" future)) of events and create a no break prophecy.

    So their is relevance as to why he'd skip to a distant future prophecy.

    2) keyword you used is "often", doesn't mean always. Not to come of brash but let's look at it this way: did Jesus come to save the "world" or just Israel(Gaia)? Food for thought.

    3)I agree, however your making end fit their timeframe, not Gods.

    4)CORRECT, your mat24b has to come after the dofj or the prophecy is void, fake, or not applicable to dofj. Which is the crux as to why we do not believe dofj is the "mat24a" prophecy. We believe it's 1 prophecy no parts, no breaks.

    5) you right God only knows when Jesus coming will G, because it's Jesus' marriage, and won't happen till God is ready for Jesus to get " married". However this "delay" does not indicate a need to break this prophecy into 2parts.

    6) a repeat shouldn't gag you, it should make you question your understanding of the prophecy: was it really fulfilled or did you understand it incorrectly. And sadly, we will get persecuted, an antichrist will rule and Gods wrath will get poured on man. Tribulation as such the world has never seen. You ever question why each war seems worse than the last?


    I give you credit in that at least you can defend what you believe, however have you actually taken the time to step back and think/pray over what your believing? Can you honestly not see how the world "currently" is and how oddly things really are circling around too repeat what you feel has already happened? I understand we are to stray from false teachings, but can I ask you when's the last time you learned something new regarding your faith or understanding of it?
     
  6. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    In Matthew 24, the disciples asked Jesus about the end of the temple and then the end of the age.

    PART 1: SETTING THE SCENE BEFORE JESUS RETURN

    A/ Temple destroyed and raised in 3 days.
    Jesus had already said he would destroy the temple and raise it in 3 days: and explain that he was talking about his body. He was hinting that the temple sacrifices would be replaced by his death once-for-all, and that this would really be the END of the temple system once and for all! See Hebrews 8 for more on how Jesus death and resurrection, and acting as the great High Priest, undoes the temple system. It replaces it. There’s no need for any more temples!

    B/ Leaving the temple is symbolic!
    Jesus walks out of Jerusalem up towards the Mount of Olives, which symbolically re-enacts that great and terrible scene from the prophets where the Holy Spirit rejects Israel and is seen leaving the Temple. Jesus the God man is rejecting the Temple system. He's going to fulfil it and everything it stands for with the one perfect sacrifice for sins.

    C/ Mountain falling into sea = OT link with living water.
    Jesus has already told the disciples that if they had enough faith they would see a mountain fall into the sea. Which 'mountain'? I'm thinking this is another Old Testament prophecy about to be fulfilled in Jesus death and resurrection. That's referring to Old Testament imagery of Jerusalem being split in 2 and rivers of fresh water flowing out to water the whole earth. Jesus told the woman at the well that if she would have faith, she would drink of living water.

    D/ BIRTH PAINS
    Jesus is referring to a whole stream of ideas in Jewish prophecy which flow around the idea of a new Kingdom. Isaiah’s child that would come and save Israel = Birth Pains = new Kingdom. Let's remember that Jesus has *already* associated the destruction of the temple with his death and resurrection!

    E/ CRUCIFIXION IMMINENT:
    Now Jesus is answering the Disciples about the end of the temple and then the end of the age. So, Jesus starts at the beginning. He's facing his own brutal murder in about a week, and so to say his execution on our behalf is "on his mind" is a bit of an understatement! The AOD in Matt 24 is Jesus talking about his own death, which lays desolate the entire Old Testament Temple system. There’s just no need! It’s done, fulfilled, desolate. The new kingdom has come, the old is gone. (Hebrews 8).

    F/ FIRST CENTURY AD A TIME OF TURMOIL:
    All the prophecies were fulfilled. Nation rose against nation, false Jewish messiah's led Jews on doomed crusades and silly quests, and earthquakes flattened and swallowed dozens of ancient cities all documented with incredible historical accuracy before AD 70.
    Matthew 24--Future or Fulfilled?
    Rome destroyed the temple in AD 70, and that was the end of the sacrificial system, the end of the age of Israel. Now the new Israel would reign!

    PART 2: WHAT ABOUT JESUS RETURN?

    Isaiah 13:10 is quoted as the Sun and Moon darkening and the Stars falling, also in Isaiah 34:4
    Jesus mentions the sign of His return Matt 24 and goes directly to his coming on the clouds at the end of the world. It could easily be read that way, and I used to read it that way. Now I'm not so certain! Apparently everything else in the verses above will be *predictable*, and that the disciples are to take action and get out of Jerusalem before these things happen — because it's all going to happen in their generation!

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    Matthew 24--Future or Fulfilled?

    So — and here I get less certain and am still checking it out — what is the 'sun darkened' and 'Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' stuff about? I'm still looking into it, but there seems to be 3 options.

    1. IT’S SYMBOLISM ABOUT THE GOSPEL
    Some Sydney Anglican scholars see it as another reference to Jesus imminent crucifixion. In this view, Jesus is not Returning in Judgement on the Clouds of Heaven — as we clearly see in other Epistles — as much as he is returning into the presence of the Ancient of Days after fulfilling his mission and ascending into Heaven! This view relies on the crucifixion being the fulfilment of OT prophecies that I am not yet convinced can be read in that light. It seems to read the 'gathering of the elect' as the gospel harvest about to commence.

    2. JESUS REIGN FROM HEAVEN ENDS THE TEMPLE
    Another view by Moore College lecturer William J Dumbrell, as stated in his book "The Search for Order", states that this is not about the gospel so much as the end of the Old Testament era. That is, the 'sun darkened' etc will be about Jesus reign in heaven and judging Jerusalem — which is what the previous chapters have referred to. The 'stars will fall from the sky' is merely apocalyptic language dramatically describing the new spiritual realities of the cross and the impact of Jesus fulfilling the old Covenant and ending the temple practises. Jesus reigns from heaven, and the sign of his reign will be the 'eagles' gathering in Jerusalem — the Eagles of Rome come to destroy the temple. Jesus reigns from heaven while on earth the disciples were to look for the warning signs that the temple was about to fall. The language here IS of looking for it, and being ready to run. You can't run from the day of the Lord, but you CAN run from the Romans. And Jesus wanted them to survive.

    This seems like a stronger interpretation, because the sign of the fig tree requires action. The disciples will have to run for it! When the Romans arrive, get out of town.

    3. MAINLY ABOUT THE TEMPLE; BUT WITH A PAUSE TO REFLECT ON AND ANSWER ABOUT THE END
    I currently — in my ignorance of the particular apocalyptic verses used to back the other views — lean towards a third view, which is that Jesus pauses his discussion of the temple to explain WHY it will be so unthinkable that anyone should be fooled by false Messiahs. And that is simply this, that when Jesus returns it is the end of the world! So verse 26 to 31 is about Jesus Return in Judgement, and verse 32 about the fig tree goes back to discussing the Romans destroying the temple, and how they are to be prepared to run for it.

    This view is weak on the 'vultures' or 'eagles' of verse 28, which implies the Romans trashing the temple and the 2nd view above. It is also weak because the fig tree could also be read as signs about the end of the world which would contradict all the thief in the night verses.
     
  7. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    My conclusions are based more on noticing the Judean roots and references of 24A. Temple, rebellions, sabbath police beating people (see the warning). Then there is the AofD. It's the only interp given by the NT and he says they will see it, and it is a signal to leave the city. When the believers in Jerusalem of that time saw the zealots take over, they left, if not before.

    The parallel signal in Lk 21 about the surrounding army has in interesting detail to it; the zealots disrupted the Romean supply line from Caesarea to Jerusalem, and Rome itself was having quarrels and there was about a year, rather than a week, when you could say the signal of the surrounding army was there.

    The tone of the material is direct, practical, present, graphic. It is also repeating some things in Mt 10 which have the same Judean-based flavor.

    All these are reasons to say it is about that.

    The connection at v29 hinges on the Father's choice to delay. There are many places where Paul does not see a delay coming at all. In fact, in Lk 21, the possible delay is not mentioned; the events of the return set right in. But Matthew has both Jesus teaching it and uses the parable of the attentive servants who though it might happen as soon as nightfall.

    Don't confuse "Until you say..." with a prediction. He is just saying that that is what those leaders need to do (like the 'ignorant' crowds did) to see/understand him: they need to see that Ps 18 is now fulfilled. "Until" in Rom 11 is a different question where it has the force of "for the duration" of time.
     
  8. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    All good points, and again I am struck by how sensible people can be in one area (eschatology) while being in complete Denial in others. :confused:
     
  9. Bible2

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    Note that the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Note that the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not (as is sometimes claimed) at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:1

    Note that the AOD isn't about Jesus' death. For the church is commanded to flee Judaea into the mountains when it sees the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), whereas the church was commanded to remain in Jerusalem after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (Luke 24:49,52, Acts 1:4 to 2:47). The church even continued to worship in the temple (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

    Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:10, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

    In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

    Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.

    In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

    In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

    To properly understand Isaiah 34:4, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).

    Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

    In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal, ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

    Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it's still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It's not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

    Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the 1st heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

    Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation, Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

    Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

    Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    --

    The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his 1st coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished (by men) in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

    Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

    Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).
     
  10. Interplanner

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    No "notes" B2. Those are just your own private assumptions that don't pass muster.
     
  11. Interplanner

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    I can't believe you are quoting Heb 8! There is no compartmentalization. The OT gradually gives way. The material we are dealing with is historical first, and then theology. You are trying to do theology first.
     
  12. eclipsenow

    eclipsenow God cares about his creation as well as us.

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    Bible2, I didn't even read this post because I don't share your presuppositions on how to approach apocalyptic imagery. It's a shameful joke. You haven't finished contradicting yourself in our other thread: I'd appreciate it if you went back there and attempted to repair your previous 'unsealed' argument, because the more you opened your mouth about biblical genre's, the wider the gaping holes in your presuppositions appeared. You left our previous conversation with your argument sputtering out in inconsistencies and weak, whimpered assertions.

    Your whimpering ended here.
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7822826-8/#post65692611
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    This I agree with:
    ===============
    parousia70 said:
    The following is a verse by verse commentary on Matthew 24, showing it's direct application to, and fulfillment in, the 1st century.

    Scripture and history testify that all criteria Christ set forth in this discourse were indeed met by people and events within that apostolic generation, exactly as prophesied.

    While the carnal temptation is to place the fulfillment of these things into OUR time, We need look no furthur than the apostles own generation for the fulfillment of "all these things".
    =====================

    Rom 8:6
    For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    1Co 2:14
    But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him;
    nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    ...
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    .....
     
  16. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I just wanted to quote this list for now and study on it later...........
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Some would think so.............
     
  18. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    I agree.........
     
  19. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Great thread parousia.
    I did something similar but added both Mark and Luke to the verses.

    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

    I put a link to each verses of Matthew 24 below, in case some one to look up individual verses.
    I include the verses of Mark 13 and Luke 21 if they are there.
    Any input from other members is welcome.
    ============================
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:1 Temple, Buildings
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:2 "stone upon stone
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:3 When shall these be?and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end of the Age?
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:4-5 For many shall be coming upon My name, saying,‘I AM the Christ....
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
    Matthew 24:9 " they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye, hated by all"
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:10 Deliver up one another---brother to death
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:11, 12 False prophets.....multiplied lawlessness...love grows cold
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:13 One enduring to end shall be saved
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:14 Gospel preached, testimony to all nations----then the end
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:16 those in Judea flee
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:17, 18 Those on Housetop---in the field
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:19 "woe to those pregnant and nursing in those days"
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:20 pray flight not in winter or sabbath
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:21 great tribulation, great distress, and wrath
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:22 Days shortened for sake of elect
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 23:23-25 False christs and prophets--deceive the elect if possible
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:26 He is in the desert, in the storerooms.
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:27 Lightening flashes from east, so shall parousia of the Son of Man
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:28 Where the eagles/vultures, there the corpse/carcass/body be
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:29 Signs in sun, moon, stars, powers of heavens shaken
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:30 Son of Man coming upon cloud/s of heaven with power and much glory
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:31 Gather elect in trumpet sound from 4 winds of heaven/s
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:32 Fig tree ripe, summer is nigh
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:33 Nigh is upon doors, Kingdom of God
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:34 Not shall be passing this generation till all fulfilled
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth pass away, but not My words
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:36 Concerning day and hour, no one knows except Father
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:37-39 As in Days of Noah, thus also shall be Son of man
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:40-42 2 will be in the field, two will be grinding----1 taken, 1 left
    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
    Matt 24:43-44 Homeowner be wathchful, not knowing which hour Son of Man coming
    =====================================
     
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