Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

rollinTHUNDER

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Josephus confirms this above as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time and proves what Josephus says above would have been understood by most Jews who lived when Christ uttered the phrase "the abomination of desolation, spoken by the prophet Daniel".

Josephus understood it, as clearly seen above.


"Cheers"

"Most people don't know it, and I don't talk about it much, but I've actually been called for this purpose." rollinTHUNDER

It appears that Flavius Josephus was called to reveal the truth of Matthew 24:15.
(let him that readeth understand.)

.

LOL - Josephus, an unbeliever, has no say is God's laws. Of course, men still make all sorts of ridiculous claims, but that doesn't mean that they are fulfillments. Daniel lived about 500 years or so before Christ. Antiochus Epiphanies did his thing in 167 BC, so it's not even possible that he could be the fulfillment of any New Testament prophecies. Prophecies speak to the future, but Antiochus' deed was done in the past, before any New Testament characters were even born.

If the abomination of desolation was already fulfilled, according to Daniel 12, then there would have been a resurrection of the dead after 1290 days, and blessed were those who came unto the 1335th day. This resurrection would precede the rapture (sign of the Son of man), following the great tribulation. Now I've heard some preterists claim that the resurrection did happen, but that is not recorded in history that is genuine. Because if that actually did happen, there would be hundreds of paintings of the greatest, most glorious event in the history of man. We have no such artwork, except for maybe pictures of what some think it may look like, in accordance with the New Testament prophecies. But we have artwork of Christ ascending in the clouds, crucifixion, and the last supper, etc., etc.

This is why Christ was pointing to a future time, not the past.

Also, Hanukkah is not a biblical feast. It was made a law and a custom or tradition, like it says in #7 in your post above. John 10:22 does confirm that they did in fact recognize this celebration. I have no problem with that, and apparently Christ and His disciple's didn't either.

Cheers
 
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BABerean2

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LOL - Josephus, an unbeliever, has no say is God's laws. Of course, men still make all sorts of ridiculous claims, but that doesn't mean that they are fulfillments. Daniel lived about 500 years or so before Christ. Antiochus Epiphanies did his thing in 167 BC, so it's not even possible that he could be the fulfillment of any New Testament prophecies. Prophecies speak to the future, but Antiochus' deed was done in the past, before any New Testament characters were even born.

If the abomination of desolation was already fulfilled, according to Daniel 12, then there would have been a resurrection of the dead after 1290 days, and blessed were those who came unto the 1335th day. This resurrection would precede the rapture (sign of the Son of man), following the great tribulation. Now I've heard some preterists claim that the resurrection did happen, but that is not recorded in history that is genuine. Because if that actually did happen, there would be hundreds of paintings of the greatest, most glorious event in the history of man. We have no such artwork, except for maybe pictures of what some think it may look like, in accordance with the New Testament prophecies. But we have artwork of Christ ascending in the clouds, crucifixion, and the last supper, etc., etc.

This is why Christ was pointing to a future time, not the past.

Also, Hanukkah is not a biblical feast. It was made a law and a custom or tradition, like it says in #7 in your post above. John 10:22 does confirm that they did in fact recognize this celebration. I have no problem with that, and apparently Christ and His disciple's didn't either.

Cheers

Daniel's Prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes


Some of us are missing out on one of the most amazing proofs that the Bible is the word of God, found in the link above.

.....................................


If God used a donkey to reveal the truth, he can also use humans who may not be Christians.

Titus, a pagan Roman, was used by God to destroy the temple in 70 AD.
This was predicted in Daniel 9.


Cyrus was used by God to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 5:13)

Whether you realize it or not, He is also using our conversation here to reveal the truth to others here who are willing to change their long-held doctrine.

It was common knowledge among the Jews during the time of Christ that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, 408 years before they happened.
This is the key to what Josephus wrote in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 12, Chapter 7.
This fact is directly related to John 10:22. Why do you think the Apostle John included the verse in his Gospel account, if it was not important?



.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Daniel's Prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes


Some of us are missing out on one of the most amazing proofs that the Bible is the word of God, found in the link above.

.....................................


If God used a donkey to reveal the truth, he can also use humans who may not be Christians.

Titus, a pagan Roman, was used by God to destroy the temple in 70 AD.
This was predicted in Daniel 9.


Cyrus was used by God to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 5:13)

Whether you realize it or not, He is also using our conversation here to reveal the truth to others here who are willing to change their long-held doctrine.

It was common knowledge among the Jews during the time of Christ that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, 408 years before they happened.
This is the key to what Josephus wrote in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 12, Chapter 7.
This fact is directly related to John 10:22. Why do you think the Apostle John included the verse in his Gospel account, if it was not important?



.

Antiochus Epiphanies was the fulfillment of the little horn in Dan. 8, which was the end of the Grecian Empire. He is not the fulfillment of Dan 12 or any New Testament prophecy.

Cheers
 
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BABerean2

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Antiochus Epiphanies was the fulfillment of the little horn in Dan. 8, which was the end of the Grecian Empire. He is not the fulfillment of Dan 12 or any New Testament prophecy.

Cheers

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
 

Do you deny that Luke 21:20-21 and Matthew 24:15-16 are related to the same event?


Were the temple sacrifices stopped in both 167 BC and 70 AD?

.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

(Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
 



Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

(Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
 

Do you deny that Luke 21:20-21 and Matthew 24:15-16 are related to the same event?


Were the temple sacrifices stopped in both 167 BC and 70 AD?

.

Yep, most certainly. They are not the same event. Several desolations were determined (Dan. 9:26).

First, Luke's surrounding armies was not an abomination. This was vengeance (punishment) upon that wicked generation as God sent the Roman's to destroy Jerusalem. How do we know this was the Roman's in the first century? Because they were led captive into all nations (verse 24). This will never happen again.

Yes, temple sacrifices were stopped in both 167 BC and 70 AD. Antiochus in 167 BC (Dan. 8:9-12). And when the Roman's destroyed Jerusalem, obviously everything stopped. And it will happen again, as a sign of His coming Matt. 24:15.

When Christ was asked specifically about the sign of His coming (Matt. 24:3), there is not one thing in His answer that relates to the first century, nothing! Also, Daniel 9:27 has not yet been fulfilled, as Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, which led to the times of the Gentiles. Dan. 12 has not been fulfilled yet either. See the connection (abomination of desolation)?
 
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BABerean2

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When Christ was asked specifically about the sign of His coming (Matt. 24:3), there is not one thing in His answer that relates to the first century, nothing! Also, Daniel 9:27 has not yet been fulfilled, as Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, which led to the times of the Gentiles. Dan. 12 has not been fulfilled yet either. See the connection (abomination of desolation)?

Did you forget the first question the Apostles asked?

Mat 24:1  Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."


Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 


"Tell us when...?" Refers to the destruction of the temple Christ had just foretold.

This question most certainly is about the destruction of the temple, which did occur during 70 AD.

............................................................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.


(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.


(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................................................

Because the angel Gabriel did not mention an antichrist or a "gap" in the 70 weeks prophecy, the only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same New Covenant with many in Matthew 26:28.
The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.




Who Confirmed The Covenant?

James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.



 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Did you forget the first question the Apostles asked?

Mat 24:1  Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."


Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 


"Tell us when...?" Refers to the destruction of the temple Christ had just foretold.

This question most certainly is about the destruction of the temple, which did occur during 70 AD.

............................................................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America before John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.


(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.


(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.............................................................................................

Because the angel Gabriel did not mention an antichrist or a "gap" in the 70 weeks prophecy, the only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same New Covenant with many in Matthew 26:28.
The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.




Who Confirmed The Covenant?

James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.




Christ never answered when, in relation to time. In fact, He never mentioned the temple again after Matt. 24:2. Instead, He gave them signs for the questions they asked.

Big difference between the covenant in Daniel 9:27 vs. Matthew 26:28. The one is a seven year covenant with no blood mentioned. The other is an eternal (everlasting) blood covenant.

Cheers
 
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BABerean2

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Christ never says when in relation to time. In fact, He never mentioned the temple again after verse 2. Instead, He gave them signs for the questions they asked.

Big difference between the covenant in Daniel 9:27 vs. Matthew 26:28. The one is a seven year covenant with no blood mentioned. The other is an eternal (everlasting) blood covenant.

Cheers

You forgot that Christ is the Messiah who would bring in the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared to give the 70 weeks prophecy.

During His ministry Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken to Daniel's people first, before it was taken to the Gentiles. During His earthly ministry the Gospel was taken to the Jews for 3 and 1/2 years. Based on what Paul said in Galatians 1:16-18 we know he did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles until at least 3 years after his conversion.

Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

Nobody can deny that the Gospel was taken to the Jews for a period of about 7 years before it was taken to the Gentiles, based on Paul's words above and based on the earthly ministry of Christ.



In Daniel 9:27 we find the end of sacrifices, which in the Old Covenant always meant a blood sacrifice.

Dan 9:27  Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." 



Mat 23:37  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 
Mat 23:38  See! Your house is left to you desolate; 



Can you explain why the scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28?

.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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You forgot that Christ is the Messiah who would bring in the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared to give the 70 weeks prophecy.

During His ministry Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken to Daniel's people first, before it was taken to the Gentiles. During His earthly ministry the Gospel was taken to the Jews for 3 and 1/2 years. Based on what Paul said in Galatians 1:16-18 we know he did not take the Gospel to the Gentiles until at least 3 years after his conversion.

Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 
Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 
Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

Nobody can deny that the Gospel was taken to the Jews for a period of about 7 years before it was taken to the Gentiles, based on Paul's words above and based on the earthly ministry of Christ.



In Daniel 9:27 we find the end of sacrifices, which in the Old Covenant always meant a blood sacrifice.

Dan 9:27  Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." 



Mat 23:37  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 
Mat 23:38  See! Your house is left to you desolate; 



Can you explain why the scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28?

.

I didn't forget anything. I'm aware the new covenant was first offered to Israel, and then to the Gentiles. And I see where you're going with this, which is another theory that is gaining in popularity, but as I said earlier, I don't buy it.

Some of you believe that the first half of Daniel's 70th week was already fulfilled by Christ, Himself. I can't speak for or say why the translators of your NKJV Bible would reference Dan. 9:27 with Matt. 26:28, but I would have to guess that apparently they must also hold a belief in this theory as well.

Do you not question the things you have come to believe, in order to prove that they are true? I first learned about eschatology from pre-tribbers. I followed them for years. I couldn't wait to buy Hal Lindsey's, Tim Lahay & Jerry Jenkins, Grant Jeffrey's and John Hagee's new books. I didn't question anything for years. I just kept going along with them, until I finally buckled down and started studying God's Word myself. It didn't take long before I started seeing the misconceptions they are teaching as truth, not to mention all the assumptions and how they ignore some other scriptures that contradict what they're teaching. That's when the light finally came on, so I decided to wipe the slate clean and got rid of all preconceived beliefs and the things that I learned from these guys that were twisting God's truth. I would hope you would do the same thing, and challenge the things that you believe. After all, this is not some kind of competition. Hopefully we're all searching for truth.

I said all of that, so that I can tell you why I don't buy this theory. God's prophecies are not vague. They are fulfilled with precision, and often times in ways that we are not expecting. This is why I don't like to keep my beliefs in a box. Instead, I prefer to have an open mind, so I can examine other possibilities, and even receive new things the Holy Spirit sometimes reveals.

Some scholars do believe that Christ fulfilled the first-half of Daniel's 70th week. I think they place too much emphasis on the word "after," as in Messiah being cut off "after" 69 weeks. They stretch that word 3 1/2 years, but it actually means that He was cut off after the completion of the 69th week. In order to believe that, they must assume His baptism began the 70th week, but how can that be, when scripture plainly says that He was cut off (crucified) after 69 weeks? The 70th week could only begin after He was crucified.

The new covenant did not begin when He was baptized or when He first started His ministry. The new covenant was not even announced until they gathered in the upper room for the last supper (Passover). It was a blood covenant, so it could not begin until He poured out His blood for the sins of the world. The 69th week ended the day He rode a colt into Jerusalem, and that is the day He was officially rejected by Israel. You cannot stretch this out for 3 1/2 years, claiming that He put a stop to the daily sacrifice and offerings. The temple was not destroyed until 70 AD, nearly 40 years later.

Another problem with this theory is that there are no divided or partial weeks in this prophecy. There were 7 weeks, 62 weeks and the 70th week. If there was supposed to be a separation in the 70th week, the prophecy would say so, but it does not say that. It tells us what will happen in the middle of the week, but there is no separation.

This is why Christ laid it all out in Matt. 24, if you can receive it. The first 3 1/2 years He called the time of sorrows (birth pains). The abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation, which is the second-half of Daniel's 70th week. It's in chronological order and there is no break or separation.

Additionally, the birth pains were not fulfilled in the first century either. They didn't see multiple famines and earthquakes increasing and in various places, nor did they see men's hearts failing from fear because of the roaring and tossing of the waves, as Luke said. They did see persecution and some were killed, however, but that is nothing new, as this has been happening off and on for nearly 2000 years. You can hold on to that theory if you like, but I wouldn't try to pour any water into it. It will leak from all of the holes it contains. I'm going to stand on His truth, without any added assumptions.

Cheers
 
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BABerean2

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I didn't forget anything. I'm aware the new covenant was first offered to Israel, and then to the Gentiles. And I see where you're going with this, which is another theory that is gaining in popularity, but as I said earlier, I don't buy it.

Some of you believe that the first half of Daniel's 70th week was already fulfilled by Christ, Himself. I can't speak for or say why the translators of your NKJV Bible would reference Dan. 9:27 with Matt. 26:28, but I would have to guess that apparently they must also hold a belief in this theory as well.

Do you not question the things you have come to believe, in order to prove that they are true? I first learned about eschatology from pre-tribbers. I followed them for years. I couldn't wait to buy Hal Lindsey's, Tim Lahay & Jerry Jenkins, Grant Jeffrey's and John Hagee's new books. I didn't question anything for years. I just kept going along with them, until I finally buckled down and started studying God's Word myself. It didn't take long before I started seeing the misconceptions they are teaching as truth, not to mention all the assumptions and how they ignore some other scriptures that contradict what they're teaching. That's when the light finally came on, so I decided to wipe the slate clean and got rid of all preconceived beliefs and the things that I learned from these guys that were twisting God's truth. I would hope you would do the same thing, and challenge the things that you believe. After all, this is not some kind of competition. Hopefully we're all searching for truth.

I said all of that, so that I can tell you why I don't buy this theory. God's prophecies are not vague. They are fulfilled with precision, and often times in ways that we are not expecting. This is why I don't like to keep my beliefs in a box. Instead, I prefer to have an open mind, so I can examine other possibilities, and even receive new things the Holy Spirit sometimes reveals.

Some scholars do believe that Christ fulfilled the first-half of Daniel's 70th week. I think they place too much emphasis on the word "after," as in Messiah being cut off "after" 69 weeks. They stretch that word 3 1/2 years, but it actually means that He was cut off after the completion of the 69th week. In order to believe that, they must assume His baptism began the 70th week, but how can that be, when scripture plainly says that He was cut off (crucified) after 69 weeks? The 70th week could only begin after He was crucified.

The new covenant did not begin when He was baptized or when He first started His ministry. The new covenant was not even announced until they gathered in the upper room for the last supper (Passover). It was a blood covenant, so it could not begin until He poured out His blood for the sins of the world. The 69th week ended the day He rode a colt into Jerusalem, and that is the day He was officially rejected by Israel. You cannot stretch this out for 3 1/2 years, claiming that He put a stop to the daily sacrifice and offerings. The temple was not destroyed until 70 AD, nearly 40 years later.

Another problem with this theory is that there are no divided or partial weeks in this prophecy. There were 7 weeks, 62 weeks and the 70th week. If there was supposed to be a separation in the 70th week, the prophecy would say so, but it does not say that. It tells us what will happen in the middle of the week, but there is no separation.

This is why Christ laid it all out in Matt. 24, if you can receive it. The first 3 1/2 years He called the time of sorrows (birth pains). The abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation, which is the second-half of Daniel's 70th week. It's in chronological order and there is no break or separation.

Additionally, the birth pains were not fulfilled in the first century either. They didn't see multiple famines and earthquakes increasing and in various places, nor did they see men's hearts failing from fear because of the roaring and tossing of the waves, as Luke said. They did see persecution and some were killed, however, but that is nothing new, as this has been happening off and on for nearly 2000 years. You can hold on to that theory if you like, but I wouldn't try to pour any water into it. It will leak from all of the holes it contains. I'm going to stand on His truth, without any added assumptions.

Cheers

I am not expecting you to "buy" anything. The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. The exact text from Jeremiah 31 is found in Hebrews 8. There is nothing to buy. It is a mathematical fact.

In Acts chapter 2 Paul addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". Therefore, all of Israel did not reject Christ as their Messiah. On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 Israelites became a part of the New Covenant announced in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Matthew 26:28. Once again, there is nothing to "buy". It is a mathematical fact.

The New Covenant was not first announced in Matthew 26:28. It was announced by name in Jeremiah 31. The New Testament is a collection of 27 books about the New Covenant.

Since Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, if the angel had said He would be "cut off" after the 68th week, it would be wrong, and if he said the Messiah would be "cut off" after the 70th week, it would be wrong.

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 

Acts 10:38 says that God anointed Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10:16-18 says there is no more offering for sin.

Therefore, Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled during the first century.
Again this is a mathematical fact, instead of a theory.


Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity was a theory until the first nuclear weapon was exploded. After that it became a mathematical fact that cannot be denied.


You may have rejected most of John Darby's doctrine, but not all of it based on the fact that you have added a "gap" to the 70 weeks prophecy, which was not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023



.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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I am not expecting you to "buy" anything. The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13. The exact text from Jeremiah 31 is found in Hebrews 8. There is nothing to buy. It is a mathematical fact.

In Acts chapter 2 Paul addressed the crowd as "men of Judea", then as "men of Israel" and in Acts 2:36 as "all the house of Israel". Therefore, all of Israel did not reject Christ as their Messiah. On the Day of Pentecost about 3,000 Israelites became a part of the New Covenant announced in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Matthew 26:28. Once again, there is nothing to "buy". It is a mathematical fact.
No doubt. That should be obvious, since He had disciples following Him. I never said all of Israel had rejected Him, only national Israel rejected Him, as God always keeps a remnant for Himself.

The New Covenant was not first announced in Matthew 26:28. It was announced by name in Jeremiah 31. The New Testament is a collection of 27 books about the New Covenant.
I meant that Christ did not announce the new covenant, Himself, until the upper room at the last supper. In other words, it was not announced at His baptism, as those of you who believe He was crucified in the middle of the 70th week assume.

Since Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week, if the angel had said He would be "cut off" after the 68th week, it would be wrong, and if he said the Messiah would be "cut off" after the 70th week, it would be wrong.
Again, scripture does not say Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. That's what you say, not scripture. Scripture says He was cut off after 7 and 62 weeks (69 weeks), not 69.5 weeks. Get real. You're just trying to side step the truth in order to protect your incorrect theory.

Daniel 9:25-26 - "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined."


Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 

Acts 10:38 says that God anointed Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10:16-18 says there is no more offering for sin.

Therefore, Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled during the first century.
Again this is a mathematical fact, instead of a theory.
All of God's prophets had the Holy Spirit. And I agree that there is no more offering for sin apart from Christ. But you seem to be forgetting that Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks and had nothing.
Also, He has not been anointed yet, and He won't be until He is anointed as King. But He told national Israel that they will not see Him again until they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

You may have rejected most of John Darby's doctrine, but not all of it based on the fact that you have added a "gap" to the 70 weeks prophecy, which was not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

I haven't added anything. You should get used to the fact that we are in the times of the Gentiles, and we will remain in the times of the Gentiles until the sign of the Son of man appears, which won't be until after the Gentiles trample the Holy city for 42 months (great tribulation). Only then will the tribes of the earth (Israel) mourn for the one they have pierced. Then they will look up and know their redemption is near (as it says in Luke 21). They will repent and He will save them after God gathers all nations against Jerusalem. Then they will declare, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
 
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LastSeven

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That's when the light finally came on, so I decided to wipe the slate clean and got rid of all preconceived beliefs and the things that I learned from these guys that were twisting God's truth. I would hope you would do the same thing, and challenge the things that you believe. After all, this is not some kind of competition. Hopefully we're all searching for truth.
I love to hear that. Most Christians I know do not have that open mind that is needed to study scripture, and it's extremely frustrating to try to talk to someone who's essentially "stuck".
 
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klutedavid

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I didn't forget anything. I'm aware the new covenant was first offered to Israel, and then to the Gentiles. And I see where you're going with this, which is another theory that is gaining in popularity, but as I said earlier, I don't buy it.

Some of you believe that the first half of Daniel's 70th week was already fulfilled by Christ, Himself. I can't speak for or say why the translators of your NKJV Bible would reference Dan. 9:27 with Matt. 26:28, but I would have to guess that apparently they must also hold a belief in this theory as well.

Do you not question the things you have come to believe, in order to prove that they are true? I first learned about eschatology from pre-tribbers. I followed them for years. I couldn't wait to buy Hal Lindsey's, Tim Lahay & Jerry Jenkins, Grant Jeffrey's and John Hagee's new books. I didn't question anything for years. I just kept going along with them, until I finally buckled down and started studying God's Word myself. It didn't take long before I started seeing the misconceptions they are teaching as truth, not to mention all the assumptions and how they ignore some other scriptures that contradict what they're teaching. That's when the light finally came on, so I decided to wipe the slate clean and got rid of all preconceived beliefs and the things that I learned from these guys that were twisting God's truth. I would hope you would do the same thing, and challenge the things that you believe. After all, this is not some kind of competition. Hopefully we're all searching for truth.

I said all of that, so that I can tell you why I don't buy this theory. God's prophecies are not vague. They are fulfilled with precision, and often times in ways that we are not expecting. This is why I don't like to keep my beliefs in a box. Instead, I prefer to have an open mind, so I can examine other possibilities, and even receive new things the Holy Spirit sometimes reveals.

Some scholars do believe that Christ fulfilled the first-half of Daniel's 70th week. I think they place too much emphasis on the word "after," as in Messiah being cut off "after" 69 weeks. They stretch that word 3 1/2 years, but it actually means that He was cut off after the completion of the 69th week. In order to believe that, they must assume His baptism began the 70th week, but how can that be, when scripture plainly says that He was cut off (crucified) after 69 weeks? The 70th week could only begin after He was crucified.

The new covenant did not begin when He was baptized or when He first started His ministry. The new covenant was not even announced until they gathered in the upper room for the last supper (Passover). It was a blood covenant, so it could not begin until He poured out His blood for the sins of the world. The 69th week ended the day He rode a colt into Jerusalem, and that is the day He was officially rejected by Israel. You cannot stretch this out for 3 1/2 years, claiming that He put a stop to the daily sacrifice and offerings. The temple was not destroyed until 70 AD, nearly 40 years later.

Another problem with this theory is that there are no divided or partial weeks in this prophecy. There were 7 weeks, 62 weeks and the 70th week. If there was supposed to be a separation in the 70th week, the prophecy would say so, but it does not say that. It tells us what will happen in the middle of the week, but there is no separation.

This is why Christ laid it all out in Matt. 24, if you can receive it. The first 3 1/2 years He called the time of sorrows (birth pains). The abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation, which is the second-half of Daniel's 70th week. It's in chronological order and there is no break or separation.

Additionally, the birth pains were not fulfilled in the first century either. They didn't see multiple famines and earthquakes increasing and in various places, nor did they see men's hearts failing from fear because of the roaring and tossing of the waves, as Luke said. They did see persecution and some were killed, however, but that is nothing new, as this has been happening off and on for nearly 2000 years. You can hold on to that theory if you like, but I wouldn't try to pour any water into it. It will leak from all of the holes it contains. I'm going to stand on His truth, without any added assumptions.

Cheers
Hello rollinThunder.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The text above pulls no punches about what the seventy weeks concerns.

It says, 'thy people and thy holy city', this means the Jews and Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks that, 'thy people', is talking about all mankind, then you have misread the text.

There is only one, 'holy city', in the old testament and that holy city is Jerusalem.

You have nowhere to go rollinThunder.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Hello rollinThunder.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The text above pulls no punches about what the seventy weeks concerns.

It says, 'thy people and thy holy city', this means the Jews and Jerusalem.

Anyone who thinks that, 'thy people', is talking about all mankind, then you have misread the text.

There is only one, 'holy city', in the old testament and that holy city is Jerusalem.

You have nowhere to go rollinThunder.

Greetings klutedavid

I agree with your statement above.

But I have no idea what you mean by saying I have nowhere to go.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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I love to hear that. Most Christians I know do not have that open mind that is needed to study scripture, and it's extremely frustrating to try to talk to someone who's essentially "stuck".

That's so true. By not studying God's Word for themselves, they don't realize they are cheating their own knowledge. And this is the reason people are easily deceived.
 
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BABerean2

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Again, scripture does not say Christ was crucified in the middle of the 70th week. That's what you say, not scripture. Scripture says He was cut off after 7 and 62 weeks (69 weeks), not 69.5 weeks. Get real. You're just trying to side step the truth in order to protect your incorrect theory.

"Get real."

Do you understand that 69.5 weeks is after 69 weeks?

If it was "my theory" the scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in the NKJV Bible would not be Matthew 26:28.

If it was "my theory" it would not be found below in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America. It was written hundreds of years before I was born.

Daniel 9:27

And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.....................................................................

If it was "my theory" it would not be the same opinion of James Lloyd, which is found below.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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"Get real."

Do you understand that 69.5 weeks is after 69 weeks?
None of the 70 weeks are broken or partial weeks according to scripture. But even if the 70th week were broken, do you realize you would still have that "gap," the times of the Gentiles would still haunt you? But rest assured, there is no separation in any of Daniel's 70 weeks, no partial weeks.

Daniel 9:25-27 - “Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the Prince Messiah shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. It shall be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the troops of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall come with a flood. And until the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”


How can Christ make a covenant for one week, if He was not cut off until the middle of that week (69.5 weeks), as you believe? It was a blood covenant, so it could not begin until He poured out His blood. That is not even possible, my friend. Furthermore, scripture does not allow for broken weeks.

If it was "my theory" it would not be the same opinion of James Lloyd, which is found below.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

Granted, you are promoting and placing your faith in some other guy's theory. Is he the originator of this theory? Do you follow James Lloyd?
 
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BABerean2

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None of the 70 weeks are broken or partial weeks according to scripture. But even if the 70th week were broken, do you realize you would still have that "gap," the times of the Gentiles would still haunt you?

Do you deny Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken first to His own people, before it was taken to the Gentiles?

Mat_10:5  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Mat 11:1  Now it came to pass, when Jesus finished commanding His twelve disciples, that He departed from there to teach and to preach in their cities. 
Mat 11:2  And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 
Mat 11:3  and said to Him, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?" 
Mat 11:4  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 
Mat_11:5  The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.



Based on Galatians 1:16-18, how long was the Gospel taken to the Jewish people before Paul took it to the Gentiles?

Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 

Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 

Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

.
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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Do you deny Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken first to His own people, before it was taken to the Gentiles?

Mat_10:5  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Mat 11:1  Now it came to pass, when Jesus finished commanding His twelve disciples, that He departed from there to teach and to preach in their cities.

Of course, not. That's common knowledge. What's your point?

Based on Galatians 1:16-18, how long was the Gospel taken to the Jewish people before Paul took it to the Gentiles? 

.

At least a few years. Paul wasn't present when Christ was teaching His disciples, so he had to learn and gain knowledge. A better question would be, where did Paul get his knowledge and wisdom, since he wrote most of the New Testament?

Cheers
 
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Marilyn C

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Do you deny Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken first to His own people, before it was taken to the Gentiles?

Mat_10:5  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.




Mat 11:1  Now it came to pass, when Jesus finished commanding His twelve disciples, that He departed from there to teach and to preach in their cities. 
Mat 11:2  And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 
Mat 11:3  and said to Him, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?" 
Mat 11:4  Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 
Mat_11:5  The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.



Based on Galatians 1:16-18, how long was the Gospel taken to the Jewish people before Paul took it to the Gentiles?

Gal 1:16  to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 

Gal 1:17  nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 

Gal 1:18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 

.

Hi BABerean2,

What the 12 disciples preached to the people of Israel was that Christ is their Messiah and they, Israel would rule over the nations of the world. This was known to them except that Jesus in the flesh was their Messiah.

What the Apostle Paul preached was that truth, but ALSO that Jesus was the head of His called out ones, the Body of Christ. This revelation was not known previously, even by the 12 apostles.

Marilyn.

Marilyn.
 
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