Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[Ronald]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

Hello RollingThunder.

Do you see the following two passages as identical?

Matthew 24
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Luke 21
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

No, I see a huge difference. In Luke, they questioned Christ about the destruction of the temple, not the sign of His coming and the end of the world. Also, there is no mention of the abomination of desolation. Instead we read about Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, which was fulfilled in the first century. Luke does give some of the signs of the end, and then warns them to watch, but no sign of His coming or end of the world.

Cheers

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

But isn't that the whole point of your post, to go where other scholars haven't gone before? The first thing you say is that other scholars are wrong because they don't look at Matthew 25 but then you also don't look at Matthew 25.

If you had actually talked about Matthew 25 then this might've been an interesting post. As it is, I don't really see the point, unless the point is for you to sell books.

No, I'm not trying to rewrite my book. My intent was to outline my new rapture theory. Although I did not quote any scripture from chap. 25, I did mention that the parables continue with the same theme, judging between the hot & lukewarm. I also mentioned the clues found in the parable of Talents, which first mentions the Lord returning to reward His servants (rapture), as well as the judgment of the nations (sheep & goats/second coming).

Nope, not selling books, just presenting a new rapture theory. My apologies if I disappointed you.

Cheers

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

This is a head shaker to me. To not be looking to compare the two, first of all, you're doing the same thing you're accusing other scholars of doing, which is ignoring other scripture that helps to explain the Olivet discourse, but what's worse is that when this is pointed out to you, you straight up choose to ignore it.

It's as if you consider the book of Luke and what it says about the time to flee to the mountains to be an irrelevant detail. Really? Why don't you address the point?

I did not say that I have never studied Luke and Mark, I have. There's actually a method to my madness. First, Luke mainly focuses on the destruction of the temple, not the sign of His coming and the end of the World or age. And in Mark, the question was more vague, asking when will these things happen, and what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled. Granted, He answered that question by telling them about the sign of the Son of man (rapture), but nothing about the end of the age or second coming.

Matthew is more complete in that it mentions the temple destruction, followed by their question, which was more specific about the sign of His coming as well as the end of the age or world. In other words, Matthew's account was the only one of the three that mentions both, the rapture and the second coming. For this reason, I see no reason whatsoever to include Luke and Mark's account, as far as trying to get a better understanding of the rapture and second coming. Mark only discusses one of the two, and Luke mentions neither. So there you have it.

Cheers

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I wrote a book too. My avatar you see is the cover of "HELL ... IF I KNOW". The first half of the book is a study of basic Christianity that equips the individual to handle the second half which gets into the nature of Hell and the end times. To teach about the end and judgment, one must first know why judgment. So we must start from the beginning.
But being an author doesn't make you right, it just means you spent a lot of time studying. If the Pre-Trib view is wrong, then so is your book. Likewise with mine. This is the chance we take as certain as we may feel. I too am comfortable with my view. I've exhausted my intelligence and used 570 scriptures from seven different versions of the Bible just to be sure of the correct translations. But then there is that fork in the road which leads us down another path with not so much a different story but one that is structured differently ... che sara.
But thankfully, my book is not for horses and in the end, I'm sure God won't hold it against me ... if I am wrong. The important thing we are doing is warning people that the end is coming and ya'll need to repent. Amen! God Bless.

Cool beans! Looks like we are in the same club!

Do you have anymore info about your book? Here's mine: My book

Cheers

 

[LastSeven]

Mark only discusses one of the two, and Luke mentions neither. So there you have it.

Luke mentions neither? Are you sure about that?

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Luke mentions neither? Are you sure about that?

I'm pretty sure, if my memory serves me correctly. Feel free to look it up. In any event, I'm satisfied that Luke does not give a complete picture, so it would have been a waste of time.

Update: My bad, Luke did vaguely mention the coming of the Son of man, but gave few details about it, mainly things that will be happening at that time (roaring waves/hearts failing).

Cheers

 

[BABerean2]

My bad, Luke did vaguely mention the coming of the Son of man, but gave no details about it whatsoever.

He gave the timing related to the warning to flee from Judea to the mountains and the fulfillment of "the times of the Gentiles".

Is that a detail?

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.　
Luk 21:22　 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.　

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[rollinTHUNDER]

He gave the timing related to the warning to flee from Judea to the mountains and the fulfillment of "the times of the Gentiles".

Is that a detail?

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem


Luk 21:20　 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.　
Luk 21:21　 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.　
Luk 21:22　 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.　
Luk 21:24　 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.　

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Like I said, very vague. No trumpet, no angels being sent to gather together His elect...and nothing about the end of the age or world (second coming).

 

[klutedavid]

Like I said, very vague. No trumpet, no angels being sent to gather together His elect...and nothing about the end of the age or world (second coming).

Hello rollinThunder.

Luke 21:27　
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

Luke 21:28　
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

That is the second coming!

and nothing about the end of the age or world (second coming)

You must be kidding?

Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These are the signs at the end, I cannot take you seriously.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hello rollinThunder.

Luke 21:27　
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

Luke 21:28　
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

That is the second coming!

You must be kidding?

Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These are the signs at the end, I cannot take you seriously.

Did you even read my post? That's the rapture, not His physical second coming to the earth.

See ya!

 

[BABerean2]

Like I said, very vague. No trumpet, no angels being sent to gather together His elect...and nothing about the end of the age or world (second coming).

Maybe you need it to be vague to make your book work, because a simple parallel study of the three Gospel accounts clearly shows they are all talking about the same thing.

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Mar 13:24　 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,　
Mar 13:25　 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.　
Mar 13:26　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.　
Mar 13:27　 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.　



The Coming of the Son of Man

Mat 24:29　 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:　
Mat 24:30　 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.　
Mat 24:31　 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.　

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[rollinTHUNDER]

Maybe you need it to be vague to make your book work, because a simple parallel study of the three Gospel accounts clearly shows they are all talking about the same thing.

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;　
Luk 21:26　 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　
Luk 21:28　 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

　

The Coming of the Son of Man

Mar 13:24　 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,　
Mar 13:25　 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.　
Mar 13:26　 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.　
Mar 13:27　 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.　



The Coming of the Son of Man

Mat 24:29　 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:　
Mat 24:30　 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.　
Mat 24:31　 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.　

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Luke is vague, simply saying there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. Matt. and Mark were more specific, that the sun would be darkened, the moon would not give her light and the stars falling. Luke also fails to mention the great sound of a trumpet, no angels sent to gather together His elect (rapture). Mark did a good job of describing those things, but he did not mention the judgment of the nations or sheep and goats, which is the second coming.

But after enduring all of your accusations, you will be delighted to know that I did mention these things Mark and Luke added in my book, even though Luke was vague about the sign of the Son of man and neither one of them mention the second coming. Matthew's account was complete, lacking nothing, covering both the rapture & second coming.

But what I can't get into your thick scull, is that I'm no longer writing my book. I was simply applying Matthew 24 as an outline for presenting my new rapture theory. There is no need to compare notes in this at all. I chose the one that was most complete, trying to keep my presentation as short as possible. Furthermore, I do not write in accordance with your silly rules. You love to argue about silly things constantly, which is why I mostly ignored you the last time I was on this board. I can see that I may have to do the same again.

 

[BABerean2]

But what I can't get into your thick scull, is that I'm no longer writing my book. I was simply applying Matthew 24 as an outline for presenting my new rapture theory. There is no need to compare notes in this at all.

What would you do now if you found out that some of the things in your book are wrong?


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[LastSeven]

Luke is vague, simply saying there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. Matt. and Mark were more specific, that the sun would be darkened, the moon would not give her light and the stars falling. Luke also fails to mention the great sound of a trumpet, no angels sent to gather together His elect (rapture). Mark did a good job of describing those things, but he did not mention the judgment of the nations or sheep and goats, which is the second coming.

But after enduring all of your accusations, you will be delighted to know that I did mention these things Mark and Luke added in my book, even though Luke was vague about the sign of the Son of man and neither one of them mention the second coming. Matthew's account was complete, lacking nothing, covering both the rapture & second coming.

But what I can't get into your thick scull, is that I'm no longer writing my book. I was simply applying Matthew 24 as an outline for presenting my new rapture theory. There is no need to compare notes in this at all. I chose the one that was most complete, trying to keep my presentation as short as possible. Furthermore, I do not write in accordance with your silly rules. You love to argue about silly things constantly, which is why I mostly ignored you the last time I was on this board. I can see that I may have to do the same again.

Matthew and Mark may have more detail but if Luke reveals to us that the armies surrounding Jerusalem is that which causes people in Judea to flee, then we know that the abomination of desolation is related to that event, which happened 2000 years ago. Isn't that the most important detail of all?

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Matthew and Mark may have more detail but if Luke reveals to us that the armies surrounding Jerusalem is that which causes people in Judea to flee, then we know that the abomination of desolation is related to that event, which happened 2000 years ago. Isn't that the most important detail of all?

Not necessarily, look at the question He was asked in Luke. He was asked specifically about the destruction of the temple, not about the sign of His coming and the end of the world. Also, those who flee into the mountains does not mean they can only flee during the abomination of desolation. There are several desolations determined (Dan. 9:26-27). It appears to me that Luke was describing events in the first century, and he concludes with the time of the end. It also appears he was more specific about the events in the first century, as that was the question asked, but it gets more vague when he refers to the time of the end.

Cheers

 

[BABerean2]

Not necessarily, look at the question He was asked in Luke. He was asked specifically about the destruction of the temple, not about the sign of His coming and the end of the world. Also, those who flee into the mountains does not mean they can only flee during the abomination of desolation. There are several desolations determined (Dan. 9:26-27). It appears to me that Luke was describing events in the first century, and he concludes with the time of the end. It also appears he was more specific about the events in the first century, as that was the question asked, but it gets more vague when he refers to the time of the end.

Cheers

The three different Gospels all tell the same story.
However, the timeline is clearer in Luke's account.




Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in the NKJV of e-sword.)



Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　



The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


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