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Featured LDS Matthew 22 & Eternal Marriage

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Solomon Smith, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    1) you have an abnormal obsession with sex and children.
    2) show me in the bible that God and His Son and the HS are both male and female? But you blow it by saying we are in their image but are separated into male or female. If we are just male or female, we are apparently not in their male and female image. Think about it and you will come to the same logical conclusion. Is this a SDA doctrine?
    3) everything that I have given you is straight from the bible, so it is obvious that we have not taken the bible out of our understanding of God. You interpret wrongly 1 scripture in the bible and we use 10 scriptures in the bible to support our position, and you have the gaul to say we are the ones taking the bible out of our understanding of God. I have not even started with JS words, which would sum it up rightly for you, but you would not have it, so I stick with our bible only.
    4) the life forms that God creates is the lifeblood of who God is. Think about it, if there were no life forms created, who would God be God to? A lifeless planet, the vacuum of space? Wow, how wonderful would that be for God. If we are going to be like God, which the scriptures scream to you, then the ability to create life forms like we are, will be our crowning glory, just like our God, who said let us go down and create man in our image and our likeness. We look like God, we are in the form of God and our flesh and bone and spirit will be the same as Gods'. Now God has others that are like Him. He can now teach His children to be like Him. As they do progress to be like Him, his entire glory continues to increase and as His childrens children progress to be like Him, his entire glory will continue to increase and this will be an eternal increase, over and over and over again, eternally. It is when His creation does those things that He teaches them to do that his glory is increased (Matthew 5:16). I want to be with the Godhead and I want to increase forever. (children is the key word for God, a little secret you get by reading the scriptures carefully, but JS really brings it to the front as he was given revelation about this subject from Jesus Christ.)
     
  2. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Neutered just means you will not have the ability to procreate, nor will you have the disire to procreate. As angels, you will not be procreating, therefore you will not have the ability to procreate or even the desire to procreate, unless you can find me a scripture that says angels procreate.
     
  3. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct, in the resurrection there is to be no marrying or given in marriage, which to me means if you are not already married, you will not have a chance "in the resurrection" to be married or given in marriage. But for those that are already married "in the Lord", will be married even "in the resurrection". Notice no time frame in this verse, this is an eternal concpept, not just for earth life.
    1 Corinthians 11:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Again, you have taken one scripture and misinterpreted it. You are right in 1 aspect of this scripture. For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, to me means that when we rise from the resurrection if you are not "married, in the Lord", you will not have a chance any more to be married or be given in marriage.

    But those already "married, in the Lord" before we rise from the dead, will continue to be husband and wife and "together" they shall be heirs of EL. (1 Peter 3:7) It is because God has said that:
    1 Corinthians 11:11 King James Version (KJV)
    11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Being married "in the Lord" is the key for eternal marriage after we rise from the dead.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018
  5. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    neutered:
    sterilize, castrate, spay, geld, fix, desex, alter, doctor
    Dictionary.com - The world’s favorite online dictionary!

    In the resurrection, Mormons expect humans to have changes in their bodies. Do you think the word neutered has another definition other than the definition understood by English speaking people? Are you speaking English to an English speaking person yet giving English words another definition not known to us?

    Humans aren't angels and don't become angels. They become resurrected humans.

     
  6. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Your famous scripture says unmarried persons become like the angels. So what is it?

    If I were actually speaking English to an English speaking person I could say that a person in the resurrection would be neutered, and a normal English speaking person would understand that I meant "unable to have children". Now how you become "unable to have children" is up to you, it could be by castration, spayed, or fixed, or desexed, or altered, or doctored, as the definition expounds, but I would use sterilized, because you look like you have the ability to have children, you just can't.

    mmsparbud says we will all be like the angels and she insists we will not be not be having babies. The only way that happens is if one or the other is neutered, (or to define this in plainer English: does not have the ability to have children)
     
  7. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    You don't have to be neutered to be celibate.
     
  8. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    The Bible never says humans will become angels.
     
  9. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    No--it is JS and Mormon believes that have an abnormal obsession with sex and children--it is what your entire salvation revolves around! Your whole "discourse" in #4 above is centered around sex--having children. That and an equally abnormal obsession with the love of power---to have an entire planet to rule over and populate it with your children from your many wives! Again--goes back to this obsession with sex and children!
    JS had no concept of the Jewish way of thinking. The bible is written by Jews, their meanings are important. God spoke to them in their own language, not through stones in a hat in some obscure language they did not understand.

    Shaddai(Name) (masc. שדי / shad'dai) MT: BREAST~s~me RMT: My breasts | Strong's: #7706

    JS took this to mean God had a wife---in the Jewish language it means God is The Nourisher. Man is not 100 male. All males have female hormones---as all female have male hormones. That is biology 101. We are indeed, made in His image.
    You are thinking as a carnal western man. Certainly not as a spiritual Jewish one.

    The modern western perspective of God ignores the Hebraic concept of "balance," which is an integral part of the Ancient Hebrews perspective of who God is.

    A Jewish perspective:The Nature of God (Elohim)

    The Masculine and Feminine nature of Elohim
    In our modern culture we tend to view God in masculine terms and imagery. While the word Elohim (Strong's #430), the plural form of the singular noun elo'ah (Strong's #433), is a masculine noun, it does not have to imply that the Elohim is plural or even masculine. To illustrate this, notice that the word Elohim is used for a female goddess in the following verse.

    For Solomon went after Ash'toreth the goddess [Elohim] of the Sido'nians. (1Ki 11:5, RSV)
    In the first chapter of Genesis we receive our first glimpse of the nature of Elohim's gender.

    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Genesis 1:27, KJV)
    Notice that in this verse it states that Elohim made humans in his image, but then it defines this image as male and female. From this we can conclude that the attributes of God are both masculine and feminine. We can then surmise that he placed his masculine attributes within the man and his feminine attributes within the woman and when a man and woman come together and become one (See Genesis 2:24), they together become the image of Elohim.

    Another reference to the masculine and feminine nature of God can be found in the following passages.

    Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. (Psalms 24:10, KJV)

    Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. (Psalms 41:13, KJV)

    In the first verse is the phrase "LORD of hosts," which in Hebrew is Yahweh Tseva'ot. The word tseva'ot is the plural of the word tsava (Strong's #6635), a feminine noun meaning "force." When two nouns are placed together they are in the construct state, therefore this phrase would be translated as "Yahweh of the forces."

    In the second verse is the phrase "LORD God," which in Hebrew is Yahweh Elohim." The word Elohim means "one of power and authority," or simply "powers." Again, this phrase consists of two nouns put together to form a construct and should be translated as "Yahweh of the powers." I should note here that the phrase "LORD God" not only ignores the Hebrew word "Yahweh," which does not mean "lord," but also the construct nature of the phrase. In Hebrew grammar two nouns put together always form a construct, usually identified in the English language with the word "of," and to my knowledge, nowhere else in the Bible are two nouns not translated in the construct state.

    Notice that the two phrases Yahweh Tseva'ot and Yahweh Elohim are synonyms, one using a feminine plural word meaning "forces," the other a masculine plural word meaning "powers."

    Also note that Yahweh is not the tseva'ot but a part of it, Yahweh is a part of the "forces," hence the usual translation of "LORD of hosts." In the same manner, Yahweh is not the Elohim, but a part of it, a part of the powers. But notice that while the translators will consistently use "LORD of hosts" for Yahweh Tseva'ot, they never use "LORD of powers" for the phrase Yahweh Elohim.

    The idea of a single male deity is unique to our modern era. In all the ancient cultures, the Elohim was a male and female. In Egypt it was Osiris (masculine) and Isis (feminine). In Canaan it was El and Elat (also known as Asherah). To the Greeks it was Zeus and Hera. To the Romans it was Jupiter and Juno. To the Germans it was Odin and Frigg. I am not making the claim that the Elohim of the bible are a god and goddess, just that the attributes of Elohim are both masculine and feminine.



    The Positive and Negative nature of Elohim
    When I speak of the positive and negative nature of Elohim, I am not speaking about a "moral" positive and negative, but the "forces" of positive and negative, much like the two poles of a magnet or the forces of the protons (positive) and electrons (negative) of an atom. God is a perfect balance of positive and negative: Good and Bad, Light and Dark, Large and Small, Make and Break, Loud and Quiet, Far and Near, One and Many, Male and Female, etc.

    This concept of "balance" is virtually unknown in our western philosophy, but is a very important one in the ancient philosophy of the Israelites and other ancient peoples. From this ancient perspective, "balance" is "order" and anything out of balance is chaos. In the following two verses we can see this balance of positive and negative within the actions of Elohim.

    In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1, LT)

    I (Elohim) will destroy all [flesh] with the earth. (Genesis 6:13, LT)

    In the first verse we see Elohim creating (positive) the world, but in the second verse we see him destroying (negative) it.

    And Elohim said, Let there be light, and there was light. (Genesis 1:3, LT)

    And Moses drew near to the thick darkness where Elohim was. (Exodus 20:21, LT)

    In these two verses we see Elohim being associated with light (positive) and darkness (negative). It is interesting to note that Jews and Christians always associate Elohim with light and Satan with darkness. However, almost every time Elohim appears to the Israelites, he is in the darkness.

    In Genesis 1:4 we read that "Elohim separated the light from the darkness." The word for light is feminine while the word for darkness is masculine. Not only is this verse about the balance of light and darkness, but it is also about the balance of the masculine and the feminine.

    In the next two verses we see two contrasting attributes of Yahweh, mercy (positive) and a consuming fire (negative).

    Yahweh your Elohim is a consuming fire. (Deuteronomy 4:24, LT)

    Yahweh your Elohim is a merciful El. (Deuteronomy 4:31, LT)

    In Genesis 1:26 we find that the image of Elohim is male (positive) and female (negative). In Genesis 3:5 and 3:22 we see that Elohim is good (positive) and bad (negative). In Joshua 23:15 we read that Yahweh does good things (positive) and bad things (negative). In Deuteronomy 30:1 Yahweh provides blessings (positive) and curses (negative). In Isaiah 45:7 we are told that God makes peace (positive) and evil (negative).

    Below is one of the most vivid passages in the entire Bible that demonstrates this positive and negative aspect of ancient philosophy.

    For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, ASV)
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You missed an important verse in Genesis. You quoted Genesis 1:27 where it says that God created...
    But in Genesis 1:26 it says:
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Now for every creation before man and woman, God did it, but when it came to man and woman, vs 26 says a very interesting thing. Is says "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

    Tell me if you can, who is "us" and who is "our"? Go to Strong and see what he says about that, then I will tell you what JS says about that.
     
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I did not say they would become angels. I said they would become like angels.
    Here are Jesus's words straight out of KJV:
    30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Persons who are as the angels of God, or persons who are like angels of God is the same thing.

    Some will not be married, who are not married "in the Lord" before the resurrection. Those not married before the resurrection will not marry or be given in marriage in the resurrection (meaning after the resurrection starts).

    You see the Lord says that the man is not to be without the woman, nor the woman without the man, "in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11:11). This means forever. "in the Lord" means forever, not just for this earth life. So we conclude there will be marriage after the resurrection for those husbands and wives that were married "in the Lord".
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    According to your doctrine those 3 make up 1 God, so who are the others besides this 1 God. If you insist that these 3 created man, then you must insist that these 3 created the animals, but the bible does not say "let us create animals" it only says and God created animals. So there has to be others involved besides just (3 persons in the 1) God in the creation of man.

    We can argue that forever. Let me tell you what other explanation is possible.
    God created earth and all on it, but when it came to his glorious creation of man and woman, he got others involved, and one of the others could have been his wife. We say that because God said, Let us make man and woman in our image, and our likeness, there had to be a female present. His image and likeness is male. His image and likeness is not female. So with his wife by his side, the bible can say male and female were created in our likeness and in our image.
     
  14. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Your misuse of scripture and ignorance of other scripture is tiresome. 1 Cor 11:11 is about head coverings, not marriage. You insert the "to be" on your own. Here's what it actually says in your preferred version (KJV):
    11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    But then you also ignore a few chapters back in 1 Cor 7:39 (and Romans 7:1-2) that supports the "death do us part" found in many wedding vows.

    39 A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord.

    Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him.

    Don't you know the law??
     
  15. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    This is one of the strangest fairy tales I've read. God is not a creature with a wife.

    "Let us" (the Godhead) make man. "In our image" is not a physical image. Jesus had not taken on human flesh and blood.

    A creature is created by God. There is no wife. There is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    Colossians 3:9, 10.
    “Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.” Here we find the image in a context of moral admonition, which points to its practical consequences as a present reality. Note that it is not our old nature which is being renewed; that was crucified with Christ. It is the new nature created in man by the Holy Spirit which must be made even newer, as it were; it must change from one degree of glory to another. Lightfoot takes “in knowledge” to mean “unto perfect knowledge.”18 That is, a fundamental aspect of our renewal after the image of our Creator is increased knowledge. This must be understood in terms of the knowledge which is in Christ. Paul says in 1:9 that he has prayed continually that the Colossians might “be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding.” And in 2:2, 3, he strives for them to “have all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.” Thus, in Colossians 3:10, the central element of the image which saints are attaining is a full and perfect knowledge. This is qualified in v. 11 which says, “Christ is all, and in all.” It should be noted in passing that again the renewal of the image is not by man’s effort, but is being done to him, we may be sure, by the Holy Spirit.
    - John Piper
    The Image of God
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The bible is clear about who created.
    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    All 3 were there---Jesus, the Son, was the creator of all.
     
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Your church teaches that those not married in one of your temples for eternity will become angels, not "as angels."

    Doctrine and Covenants 132

    15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

    16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

    17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

    FYI, humans don't become gods or angels.
     
  18. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Tell me the difference between "an angel" and one that will be "as an angel"?
     
  19. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    In all sincerety, we know very little about God, so to say what you said with such great authority, is just simply a guess on your part, that is all.

    For instance, you say God is not a creature, but yet God flew past Moses, who was standing in the clift of a rock. And when God flew past him He exposed His creatureness. First He put his "hand" in front of Moses's face to shield Moses from seeing His "face", but then as God flew past, He withdrew His "hand", and Moses was able to see God's "back parts".

    From this scripture, we now know that God is made in the image of man, with hands, and face, and back parts, just like a man. Now, is God a creature? No, He is forever and will be forever, so no, he is not a creature, but he is an resurrected, exhalted, man, as shown to us clearly by the bible - see
    Exodus 33:22-23.

    The idea of "let us" is up for interpretation. You have one thought, and I have another thought, and we will not really know the answer to this until we get to the other side and meet God and ask Him who was at the creation.

    Did Jesus become a creature when he was created by a human woman?
     
  20. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, all of that, but you have to agree, the idea that "let us" and "our image" and "our likeness" can be reasonably interpreted many ways, and we will just have to wait until we meet God to get the answer to that question.
     
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