Matthew 16:26 would make Jesus disingenuous if not all men could do so

[janxharris]

Matthew 16:26a
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

If it is the case that God decided the fate of each man - whether they would or would not receive eternal life - why is Jesus offering soul-salvation as if it were actually a possibility for any man? Granted, Jesus is talking to His disciples, but He does say in verse 24:

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

So Jesus is clearly appealing to anyone and everyone - indeed, He uses the word 'someone' in v.26.

 

[sdowney717]

He is just speaking generally to the audience.

 

[janxharris]

He is just speaking generally to the audience.

Not sure what you mean...

 

[sdowney717]

Not sure what you mean...

if anyone, if someone, those who, all that, see what I mean?
None of this is saying anything specific those who He has enabled to know Him and God.

 

[janxharris]

if anyone, if someone, those who, all that, see what I mean?

I don't, no.

None of this is saying anything specific those who He has enabled to know Him and God.

There is no mention of enabling. Those who come to Jesus are those that hear and learn from the Father (John 6:45).

The OP makes the point that it would be disingenuous of Jesus to talk about gaining the world whilst losing one's soul if God predestined such things.

 

[sdowney717]

In Luke Jesus gets specific, now how does what Jesus say agree with your thought patterns?

More here so as to get a feel for the passage

The Seventy Return with Joy

17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”

18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

23 Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; 24 for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”

Jesus clearly says

Your names must be written in heaven to go there.
God has hidden spiritual truths from people of the world. But revealed them to His children, the babes.
God is a revealer of secret spiritual truths of salvation and reveals them only to those He desires to know as His friends.

'All things' delivered from father to Son, Jesus has power over all flesh to do with as He wills.

 

[janxharris]

In Luke Jesus gets specific, now how does what Jesus say agree with your thought patterns?

More here so as to get a feel for the passage

The Seventy Return with Joy

17 Then the seventy[e] returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”



Jesus clearly says

Your names must be written in heaven to go there.
God has hidden spiritual truths from people of the world. But revealed them to His children, the babes.
God is a revealer of secret spiritual truths of salvation and reveals them only to those He desires to know as His friends.

'All things' delivered from father to Son, Jesus has power over all flesh to do with as He wills.

Such knowledge was given to Judas (Matthew 13). Do you say he was saved then?

 

[sdowney717]

Such knowledge was given to Judas (Matthew 13). Do you say he was saved then?

Nope.

For an understandable reason many people want to feel in control of their destiny. But you see as Jesus said a destiny of heaven is only for those that He reveals the Father and the Son. Heaven is not yours to choose, not within you ability to know the truth.
God says none seek after Him even though He tells them to seek after Him, they are disobedient to the message. Without God's revelation into your spirit the truth, a man will not choose God but man will choose the world.
Judas is not representative of a type of man. Judas was a unique individual slotted into a unique destiny to fulfil God's prophetic words.

 

[sdowney717]

As an example of this

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is clear that unsaved men do not receive the things of the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually discerned. The discernment, think of it as a veil, the truth hidden. In Christ the veil is taken away. Christ takes it away personally for those He has willed to know Himself and God.

Scripture clearly contrasts those of the world, the natural man versus the spiritual man enlightened by the Holy Spirit. They are distinct and also have differing destinies.

 

[janxharris]

Nope.

For an understandable reason many people want to feel in control of their destiny. But you see as Jesus said a destiny of heaven is only for those that He reveals the Father and the Son. Heaven is not yours to choose, not within you ability to know the truth.
God says none seek after Him even though He tells them to seek after Him, they are disobedient to the message. Without God's revelation into your spirit the truth, a man will not choose God but man will choose the world.
Judas is not representative of a type of man. Judas was a unique individual slotted into a unique destiny to fulfil God's prophetic words.

How does it help to have knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven then? You don't think it helped Judas...you said he wasn't saved.

Why isn't Jesus disingenuous?

 

[sdowney717]

How does it help to have knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven then? You don't think it helped Judas...you said he wasn't saved.

Why isn't Jesus disingenuous?

Jesus spoke in parables.
So that what does scripture say?
Is this disingenuous?

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Generally, those who it has not been given to know God and the truth, will just never know God and the truth. Judas is an exception, his life ordained by God a destiny lived out to fulfil various scriptures pointing to Jesus as the Christ as written in the OT.

You get your answers right here in what Jesus says about these things.
“Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given"

 

[janxharris]

Jesus spoke in parables.
So that what does scripture say?
Is this disingenuous?

Generally, those who it has not been given to know God and the truth, will just never know God and the truth. Judas is an exception, his life ordained by God a destiny lived out to fulfil various scriptures pointing to Jesus as the Christ as written in the OT.

Generally? If its not an absolute (which is what you seem to be saying) then there can be no argument that such scriptures as these (Matthew 13, Luke 10, John 12) can be used as evidence of Divine Election/Reprobation.

You get your answers right here in what Jesus says about these things.
“Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given"

But you have just admitted an exception...I don't know how I can put it any clearer...

 

[sdowney717]

You always get the meaning lost in the translation so to speak, so slow to believe what has been written in the scriptures.

Hitting on these themes of how we are saved or not saved over and over going against what has clearly been written down. Why do you refuse to believe it simply as it has been written down?

Honestly?

 

[janxharris]

Luke 22:20-21
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.

 

[janxharris]

You always get the meaning lost in the translation so to speak, so slow to believe what has been written in the scriptures.

Hitting on these themes of how we are saved or not saved over and over going against what has clearly been written down. Why do you refuse to believe it simply as it has been written down?

Honestly?

This is opinion isn't it?

My last post argued that the doctrines of election/reprobation could not be proven from Matthew 13, Luke 10 and John 12.

 

[sdowney717]

That Judas was exceptional, an exception, unique Jesus says like this
John 17

12 While I was with them in the world,[c] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[d] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas the only one Jesus will ever loose that the Father gave to Jesus.

Remember He said and today also says

"All that the Father gives me will come to me."

"son of perdition" strong words on Judas here from the Lord.

 

[janxharris]

That Judas was exceptional, an exception, unique Jesus says like this
John 17


Judas the only one Jesus will ever loose that the Father gave to Jesus.

Remember He said and today also says

"All that the Father gives me will come to me."

"son of perdition" strong words on Judas here from the Lord.

Are you saying that you do not accept the 'P' of TULIP?

 

[Jack Terrence]

Matthew 16:26a
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

If it is the case that God decided the fate of each man - whether they would or would not receive eternal life - why is Jesus offering soul-salvation as if it were actually a possibility for any man? Granted, Jesus is talking to His disciples, but He does say in verse 24:

“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me."

So Jesus is clearly appealing to anyone and everyone - indeed, He uses the word 'someone' in v.26.

Janx,

Your total disregard for context floors me sometimes. You say that Jesus is 'clearly' appealing to "anyone and everyone." Yet verse 24 CLEARLY said that He was speaking to His disciples.

Tell me, how do you sleep at night? I can't do it. I can't sleep knowing that I wrenched statements in the bible out of their context.

 

[janxharris]

Janx,

Your total disregard for context floors me sometimes. You say that Jesus is 'clearly' appealing to "anyone and everyone." Yet verse 24 CLEARLY said that He was speaking to His disciples.

Tell me, how do you sleep at night? I can't do it. I can't sleep knowing that I wrenched statements in the bible out of their context.

How does it avail your position if he is only speaking to the disciples and never intended it to apply to anyone else?

It is quite clear that Jesus speaks to anyone who 'wants to be my disciple' - that will include those like the seed that fell on rocky soil.

 

[Jack Terrence]

How does it avail your position if he is only speaking to the disciples and never intended it to apply to anyone else?

It is quite clear that Jesus speaks to anyone who 'wants to be my disciple' - that will include those like the seed that fell on rocky soil.

No! He was speaking to His disciples telling them to lose their lives for His sake.

How can you say that it is "quite clear" that Jesus was speaking to "anyone and everyone" when He had departed from the crowd and was alone with His disciples (vs. 4)? Why didn't He say this when He was still with the crowd?

You commit the Fallacy of Generalization. Look it up!