Matter of Heaven

quantumspirit

evangelical humanist
Jul 21, 2004
1,225
79
51
Minnesota
✟1,798.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Picture yourself in boat on a river,
With tangerine trees and marmalde skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly,
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes.
Cellophane flowers of yellow and green,
Towering over your head.
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes,
And she’s gone.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds,
Follow her down to a bridge by a fountain
Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies,
Everyone smiles as you drift past the flowers,
That grow so incredibly high.
Newspaper taxis appear on the shore,
Waiting to take you away.
Climb in the back with your head in the clouds,
And you’re gone.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds,
Picture yourself on a train in a station,
With plasticine porters with looking glass ties,
Suddenly someone is there at the turnstile,
The girl with kaleidoscope eyes.
Lucy in the sky with diamonds
 
Upvote 0

MrGoodBytes

Seeker for life, probably
Mar 4, 2006
5,868
286
✟15,272.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
This thread should be moved to General Drug Abuse Forums/Hallucinogens/383434-dmt-and-crack-cocaine-do-not-mix


No, but there will be eternal toilets made out of solid, transparent gold. ;)
Does the term "The Golden Throne" mean anything to you?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
i guess evidence of other stars doing the same thing now doesn't count for you then?
the hubble has caught images of dying stars before, and mathimatically we have a pretty good estimate for how long the sun will exist as a yellow star, something close to 5 billion years?


Of course the evidence is important. What is it, however, actually? That some stars have exploded, etc.
When matter in our universe was left in a physical only state, decay, and etc happened, as it now does. Some of the stars were so affected by the change, they exploded, apparently. As we can see, most are alright, and there is no billions of years in this temporary state for all that many more to explode, fade, fall, or whatever! About a third, tops! Most, then, will be with us forever in the coming new universe, or 'new heavens' -Always, and that is in perfect agreement with all the evidence we see, as well as the bible.



just to tell you this, from history revelations wasn't even in the bible till well into the 4th century ad, or maybe 5th, its really not all that inspired
its full of mythical garbage mined from judiaism and pagan sources
But it was based on the sacred writings, so carefully passed down, as well as the writings of early Christians, many who were eye witneses to Jesus.

look at the dragon, it represents chaos or tiamat or lothan, which was what the darkness in genesis was unpersified
No, the dragon is that old serpent, the devil. That is what the bible says, plain as day. If he was compared to darkness, great, but you seem to have been taught the old standard 'fabalize and explain away as unreal, the bile' course 101.
 
Upvote 0

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
77
Visit site
✟15,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
Of course the evidence is important. What is it, however, actually? That some stars have exploded, etc.
When matter in our universe was left in a physical only state, decay, and etc happened, as it now does. Some of the stars were so affected by the change, they exploded, apparently. As we can see, most are alright, and there is no billions of years in this temporary state for all that many more to explode, fade, fall, or whatever! About a third, tops!
Actually it says a third part of the stars will be cast to earth. Even one coming anywhere near the earth would pretty much put an end to everything. No golden city could float down to a vaporized planet.
Most, then, will be with us forever in the coming new universe, or 'new heavens' -Always, and that is in perfect agreement with all the evidence we see, as well as the bible.
Come on dad. Your bizzare fantasies don't agree with any evidence that anyone has ever seen anywhere.

But it was based on the sacred writings, so carefully passed down, as well as the writings of early Christians, many who were eye witneses to Jesus.
Really. Exactly what sacred writings are those? I thought it was all based on the visions (or delusions) of a single individual.

No, the dragon is that old serpent, the devil. That is what the bible says, plain as day. If he was compared to darkness, great, but you seem to have been taught the old standard 'fabalize and explain away as unreal, the bile' course 101.
Revelations is clearly not a literal exposition of what is going to actually occur. Do really expect that a woman with a crown of 12 stars will appear and then flee into the wilderness or that 3.33 x 10^20 stars will be cast to earth by a dragons tail? Maybe you do. It is not much more goofy than the delusions in your OP about a floating city and transparent gold. At least you can always be counted on to come up some new amusing absurdity, though this one does seem a bit recycled. Do you get these weird idea while sitting on that golden throne that Mr Goodbytes mentions?

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
Upvote 0

quantumspirit

evangelical humanist
Jul 21, 2004
1,225
79
51
Minnesota
✟1,798.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
dad said:
Utterly false. What you really mean to say is that IF this state of PO went on for billions of years, that is what would happen. That is meaningless! Unless you can prove that it will go on!
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where Hydrogen is built into Helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

The sun is hot, the sun is not
A place where we could live
But here on Earth there'd be no life
Without the light it gives

We need its light, we need its heat
The sun light that we seek
The sun light comes from our own sun's
Atomic energy

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where Hydrogen is built into Helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees

The sun is hot...

The sun is so hot that everything on it is a gas
Aluminum, Copper, Iron, and many others

The sun is large...

If the sun were hollow, a million Earth's would fit inside
And yet, it is only a middle size star

The sun is far away...

About 93,000,000 miles away
And that's why it looks so small

But even when it's out of sight
The sun shines night and day

We need its heat, we need its light
The sun light that we seek
The sun light comes from our own sun's
Atomic energy

Scientists have found that the sun is a huge atom smashing machine
The heat and light of the sun are caused by nuclear reactions between
Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Carbon, and Helium

The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where Hydrogen is built into Helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually it says a third part of the stars will be cast to earth. Even one coming anywhere near the earth would pretty much put an end to everything.

Yes the devils are cast down here, by Michael, and the forces of heaven, not like they wouldcome on their own accord.
In other places, it talks of stars being darkened, etc, which leads me to think that we will see a third of the physical stars fall out of the veiw of man as well. Not to earth, of course, it is amusing you chose to misunderstand this, But that is your problem.

No golden city could float down to a vaporized planet. Come on dad. Your bizzare fantasies don't agree with any evidence that anyone has ever seen anywhere.
You are fading here. Sometimes I wonder how I took anything you said with much seriousness.

Really. Exactly what sacred writings are those? I thought it was all based on the visions (or delusions) of a single individual.
The bible is based on the Hebrew, as well as the sacred early Christian era material.

Revelations is clearly not a literal exposition of what is going to actually occur.

Of course it is, but also a spiritual exposition which is out of the shortsightedness of only natural minded men.

Maybe you do. It is not much more goofy than the delusions in your OP about a floating city and transparent gold.
I would learn some manners in regards to sacred beliefs and customs of others. Do you make fun of those little Jewish caps as well? What about turbans? Guess hate crimes are tolerated here, as long as it is against Christian core beliefs, Jesus, and God.

At least you can always be counted on to come up some new amusing absurdity, though this one does seem a bit recycled. Do you get these weird idea while sitting on that golden throne that Mr Goodbytes mentions?

The city is well known, commonly called heaven, and the hope of all ages for Christians, who are not at home in this world, just passing through like pilgrims and strangers, That city is our home.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where Hydrogen is built into Helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees
Funny, aren't helium and hydrogen next to each other on the periodic table? Seperated by a tiny atomic difference, the kind of differences that the big universal change ate for breakfast.


We need its light, we need its heat
The sun light that we seek
The sun light comes from our own sun's
Atomic energy
We need no light of the sun, in that coming golden city.
The sun is a mass of incandescent gas
A gigantic nuclear furnace
Where Hydrogen is built into Helium
At a temperature of millions of degrees
Hot can be good, and when it is in it's eternal state in the new heavens, however hot it might be will be forever.


The sun is so hot that everything on it is a gas
Aluminum, Copper, Iron, and many others
Not for long, the spiritual eternal elements will also be there, bringing all the physical things into their proper little original place.


If the sun were hollow, a million Earth's would fit inside
And yet, it is only a middle size star
Big can be good.

The sun is far away...

About 93,000,000 miles away
And that's why it looks so small
Not a moment's trip for us in our new bodies, where time shall be no more as we know it now.


Scientists have found that the sun is a huge atom smashing machine
The heat and light of the sun are caused by nuclear reactions between
Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Carbon, and Helium
At the moment, it may be like an atomic smash up derby, but soon, it will whir into perfect harmony.
 
Upvote 0

Nathan Poe

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2002
32,198
1,693
49
United States
✟41,319.00
Faith
Agnostic
Politics
US-Democrat
New Jerusalem is made of eternal transparent gold, and it will land on an eternal earth here. In heavens that are eternal, and where trees grow a different fruit in some cases every single month of the year.
Human eternal bodies there will be composed of eternal matter, like the ressurected body of Jesus, that could appear, and go through doors, and yet was physical also, and could eat, and drink.
This means that Christians by and large accept that a different state of the universe is coming. This is what we believe. We the majority of Christians on earth.
A heaven where animals like lions will again eat straw like an ox, as originally created. A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly. A place where angels and God walk, and live, as well as us.
A state unlike the present one.
We do not appreciate those who, with no possible evidence claim that our galaxy will crash, sun burn out, and earth fade away one day, especially to children.
Stop it please.

But what about the pixies? Don't forget the pixies!!!!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CaptainJeanLucPicard

Junior Member
Sep 29, 2006
29
1
USS Enterprise
✟7,655.00
Faith
Lutheran
Remember, we are now in a temporary state that is physical only! Therfore, indirect evidence is all we can look for. I present the fact that man has always, in a majority of numbers, through all history believed in the spiritual for billions of different reasons, that we feel were real. Why, do you have a speck of evidence against it??
You do not present a fact; you present an assumption. The burden of proof is on you for proposing that the laws of physics can change for no reason; it's not my job to prove you wrong, but you must prove yourself right.

dad said:
Well, it is the devil, that was in the heads of every world power mentioned there, and it spells them out in that book. It was a spiritual picture, not a physical dragon.
So you agree that not everything in Revelations is absolutely true, but some must be metaphor!

dad said:
Utterly false. What you really mean to say is that IF this state of PO went on for billions of years, that is what would happen. That is meaningless! Unless you can prove that it will go on!
Again, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that the laws of physics change for no particular reason.

dad said:
Yes the devils are cast down here, by Michael, and the forces of heaven, not like they wouldcome on their own accord.
In other places, it talks of stars being darkened, etc, which leads me to think that we will see a third of the physical stars fall out of the veiw of man as well. Not to earth, of course, it is amusing you chose to misunderstand this, But that is your problem.
Well, stars are cast to Earth in Revelation. You need to accept that much of it is metaphor and must be interpreted accordingly.

Revelation 6:13 said:
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 12:4 said:
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


dad said:
At the moment, it may be like an atomic smash up derby, but soon, it will whir into perfect harmony.
How do you propose the Sun will operate in the future?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You do not present a fact; you present an assumption. The burden of proof is on you for proposing that the laws of physics can change for no reason; it's not my job to prove you wrong, but you must prove yourself right.
The laws of physics, or more properly called, temporary laws, cannot be demonstrated to apply to the past or future! This is your dilemma. You therefore cannot claim they can.


So you agree that not everything in Revelations is absolutely true, but some must be metaphor!
Some of it involves things spiritual, like the forces that we can't see that have run every kingdom of this world. But so much of it is nitty gritty, down to earth, basic stuff, like the antichrist, and mark of the beast, and heaven coming, and new heavens, etc. Much of this stuff is also found in other places like the old testament.


Again, the burden of proof is upon you to prove that the laws of physics change for no particular reason.
As explained you have to prove that they always will be and were for no particular reason. That is a bad as saying, " I am, therfore I always was"


Well, stars are cast to Earth in Revelation. You need to accept that much of it is metaphor and must be interpreted accordingly.
Looking at the context it is talking of the devil, and his angels, which are cast to earth. Other places we do see that stars are affected as well in that time.


How do you propose the Sun will operate in the future?
It will be merged matter, and the atomic state will be altered. Not just the PO state, but the actual state, so as that it will never burn out.
 
Upvote 0

DiscardedTruths

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2006
2,405
25
Yeah East Coast Babyyy, holla bac
✟2,821.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
New Jerusalem is made of eternal transparent gold, and it will land on an eternal earth here. In heavens that are eternal, and where trees grow a different fruit in some cases every single month of the year.

Revelation implies that those that are saved would be going to the Kingdom of Heaven, not Heaven itself..so who is actually in Heaven, and who will be stationed in the Kingdom of Heaven??

Human eternal bodies there will be composed of eternal matter, like the ressurected body of Jesus, that could appear, and go through doors, and yet was physical also, and could eat, and drink.
This means that Christians by and large accept that a different state of the universe is coming. This is what we believe. We the majority of Christians on earth. A heaven where animals like lions will again eat straw like an ox, as originally created. A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly. A place where angels and God walk, and live, as well as us.

Boy you have an vivid imagination...
Is there any scripture evidence for this (bolded)?

A state unlike the present one.
We do not appreciate those who, with no possible evidence claim that our galaxy will crash, sun burn out, and earth fade away one day, especially to children.
Stop it please.

So brainwashing children to believe in this nonsense is a better alternative? :doh:
 
Upvote 0

CaptainJeanLucPicard

Junior Member
Sep 29, 2006
29
1
USS Enterprise
✟7,655.00
Faith
Lutheran
The laws of physics, or more properly called, temporary laws, cannot be demonstrated to apply to the past or future! This is your dilemma. You therefore cannot claim they can.
dad said:
As explained you have to prove that they always will be and were for no particular reason. That is a bad as saying, " I am, therfore I always was"
You did not demonstrate anything! All you are stating is, "I say this occurred, therefore, I am right, therefore, you are wrong." Show me how gravity can suddenly repel objects or how atoms can swell up suddenly. That cannot happen! Physics has been used to predict future events, such as the moon landing and the trajectory of the Voyager probes. You can look into the past by using a telescope and looking out far enough; laws work just as well over there as they do here!

dad said:
Some of it involves things spiritual, like the forces that we can't see that have run every kingdom of this world. But so much of it is nitty gritty, down to earth, basic stuff, like the antichrist, and mark of the beast, and heaven coming, and new heavens, etc. Much of this stuff is also found in other places like the old testament.
So do you believe that some is metaphor, or that an invisible dragon that fights and throws stars to the Earth using its tail?

dad said:
Looking at the context it is talking of the devil, and his angels, which are cast to earth. Other places we do see that stars are affected as well in that time.
You're either saying that the devil and his allies live in heaven or in space at that point. There is nothing within the context to suggest that it is the devil. It states that stars will be cast to Earth, not the devil and his allies; the passage would have stated so as it would not have deviated far from the tone of the entire book.

dad said:
It will be merged matter, and the atomic state will be altered. Not just the PO state, but the actual state, so as that it will never burn out.
Again, explain how nuclear fusion will no longer be necessary to maintain a star. What is the process? What is merged matter? Provide an explanation or do some math. Give me a picture and the spectrum of a star that is "alive" and well and does not fuse atoms. Simply provide evidence for your claims!

Make sure you've taken 1000 mg of Advil. You're gonna need it. :)
I see what you mean! :D
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
..Show me how gravity can suddenly repel objects or how atoms can swell up suddenly.
In other words, show me how it now works. But a new heavens are coming, where we will live forever. A new state of the universe we have never seen since science came to exist.


That cannot happen! Physics has been used to predict future events, such as the moon landing and the trajectory of the Voyager probes. You can look into the past by using a telescope and looking out far enough; laws work just as well over there as they do here!
But that is all more or less the present! I consider the present (state) to be from about 4400 years ago, till a little over a thousand years from now. Nowthen, show me something out of the present the laws of, ahem, physics, have predicted?!!!


So do you believe that some is metaphor, or that an invisible dragon that fights and throws stars to the Earth using its tail?
It is something described that is spiritual, a real event, the devil and his angels are actually getting cast here to earth. Watch out.


You're either saying that the devil and his allies live in heaven or in space at that point. There is nothing within the context to suggest that it is the devil. It states that stars will be cast to Earth, not the devil and his allies; the passage would have stated so as it would not have deviated far from the tone of the entire book.
The devil still has access to heaven, as we see in Job. But he is going to get the boot.In another place in the book it says
Re 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Plain as day.


Again, explain how nuclear fusion will no longer be necessary to maintain a star. What is the process?
It is not just a process change in this temporary physical only universe. It is a universe change. The spiritual will also be combined with the physical, resulting is processes your mind would possibly not be able to presently wrap itself around.

What is merged matter?
Physical and spiritual together.

Provide an explanation or do some math.
Jesus' body after He arose! Spiritual and physical.

Give me a picture and the spectrum of a star that is "alive" and well and does not fuse atoms. Simply provide evidence for your claims!
This entire universe is physical only at the moment. They all are like us, and burning up, and decaying away, and dying.
Where the change comes is when the new heavens (merged universe) comes.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,904
1,261
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Revelation implies that those that are saved would be going to the Kingdom of Heaven, not Heaven itself..so who is actually in Heaven, and who will be stationed in the Kingdom of Heaven??
Can you tell me what you call New Jerusalem, where God lives, and us?




Boy you have an vivid imagination...
Is there any scripture evidence for this (bolded)?
Yes.
Isa 65:25 - The
wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Mr 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mr 16:9 - Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he
appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Mr 16:12 - After that he
appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Lu 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Lu 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So brainwashing children to believe in this nonsense is a better alternative?
Sticking to what you know you are talking about is a good idea. Especially when it comes to teaching children.
 
Upvote 0

DiscardedTruths

Well-Known Member
Aug 4, 2006
2,405
25
Yeah East Coast Babyyy, holla bac
✟2,821.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Can you tell me what you call New Jerusalem, where God lives, and us?

I assumed the New Jerusalem was the Kingdom of Heaven, an earthly kingdom where Jesus reigns...am I wrong? Why would there be an distinction between the second heaven and Jerusalem
A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly

Any scriptures for this?


Sticking to what you know you are talking about is a good idea. Especially when it comes to teaching children.

I doubt you know what you are talking about.
You have a book that claims all these miraculous things will happenbut nothing to support these assumptions, you have not one shred of evidence that Heaven is real, and those events will take place.
 
Upvote 0

Herman Hedning

Hiking is fun
Mar 2, 2004
503,922
1,572
N 57° 44', E 12° 00'
Visit site
✟732,803.00
Faith
Humanist
A heaven where animals like lions will again eat straw like an ox, as originally created. A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly. A place where angels and God walk, and live, as well as us.

But will pigs also fly?

whenPigsFly.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums