Matter of Heaven

[Shakespeare]

Well, while I would agree that Christians do anticipate a new existence, I doubt that the majority of them believe in descending moon-sized golden cities. The whole idea of a city made of gold and prescious gems seems a bit materialistic to me, but I'll let that go.

While I believe in a "new creation" (what Christian couldn't?), I also acknowledge that I will not know the nature of that creation until I experience it. To do otherwise is counter-productive to both my own spiritual growth and that of others. To expound such ridiculous (in the literal sense of the word) descriptions is to invite ridicule and mockery, neither of which are conducive to the great commission.

As far as I am aware, the exact nature of the new creation is never specifically detailed in scripture beyond the fact that it is a restoration to the original, perfect human state of existence intended for mankind. I assume that since Adam and Eve were originally created in this perfect state, that the new creation will be similar to the Garden. It seems to me that if that a golden city from the stars is the "perfect" state, then it wouldn't have been a "Garden" of Eden but rather a "Golden City" of Eden. But that, of course, is pure speculation on my part. I would never be so arrogant as to presume that I was in possession of the ultimate truth of the nature of the new creation. If God had intended that to be known, it would have been clearly stated in scripture.

By the way, that's not what "transparent" means. The word you are looking for is "luminous."

 

[dad]

Actually what that means is that gold will not reflect light but that it will produce it's own light. We are told that there will be no sun.

Sorry John, I have to correct you there. Elsewhere in the bible we understand the sun is forever. What is going on in Revelation here is pointing out there is another light also, so we don't NEED the light of the sun, which will still be here, as long as there is seedtime and harvest, which is forever.

 

[Jase]

Dad,

Could you please share whatever it is you are ingesting? Because...I want to fly!!

Edit: Should this really be on the Crevo board?

No, it shouldn't be on this board but we don't have a forum for threads for communications from citizens of other planets.

 

[Jase]

Only in the PO present universe, where gold is not transparent, or eternal. Matter is different in the new universe to come soon.

How can gold be gold if matter is completely different? Gold has a specific atomic structure. If you mess up that structure, you no longer have gold. Did it ever occur to you that a lot of this gem and gold talk is metaphoric? Revelation itself is highly questionable regarding its authenticity. There is another Revelation older than this one about the Roman Empire.

 

[dad]

Well, while I would agree that Christians do anticipate a new existence, I doubt that the majority of them believe in descending moon-sized golden cities. The whole idea of a city made of gold and prescious gems seems a bit materialistic to me, but I'll let that go.

If they believe the bible they do. Indeed. It is true perhaps the majority of christians do not even know about it, but it can't be denied. That is where I draw the line.

While I believe in a "new creation" (what Christian couldn't?), I also acknowledge that I will not know the nature of that creation until I experience it.

Others can simply read the word, and have a sneak peek!

To do otherwise is counter-productive to both my own spiritual growth and that of others. To expound such ridiculous (in the literal sense of the word) descriptions is to invite ridicule and mockery, neither of which are conducive to the great commission.

Nonsense, the world needs more heaven, and less hell! "Thry kingdome come thy will be done on earth AS in heaven" He done went and told us plenty about it, ignore it at your peril.

As far as I am aware, the exact nature of the new creation is never specifically detailed in scripture beyond the fact that it is a restoration to the original, perfect human state of existence intended for mankind.

Many details are given, actually. Many.

I assume that since Adam and Eve were originally created in this perfect state, that the new creation will be similar to the Garden.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You hear that folks!!! I never said it, this poster did!!! Bang on.

It seems to me that if that a golden city from the stars is the "perfect" state, then it wouldn't have been a "Garden" of Eden but rather a "Golden City" of Eden.

Ah, you miss the key there, the world also is made new, and the whole heavens!!!!!!!

But that, of course, is pure speculation on my part. I would never be so arrogant as to presume that I was in possession of the ultimate truth of the nature of the new creation. If God had intended that to be known, it would have been clearly stated in scripture.

The stuff I mentioned and a lot more IS.

 

[dad]

How can gold be gold if matter is completely different? Gold has a specific atomic structure. If you mess up that structure, you no longer have gold.

No, it was messed up, and we have the messed up version at the moment. The secret ingredient is the spiritual component. The atomic structure will be different, yet it will be true gold in the original etrnal pure form.

Did it ever occur to you that a lot of this gem and gold talk is metaphoric? Revelation itself is highly questionable regarding its authenticity.

I disagree. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, written by John.

 

[dad]

No, it shouldn't be on this board but we don't have a forum for threads for communications from citizens of other planets.

This is every bit as scientific as claiming the sun will burn out. It pertains to the creation debate, this known coming change in the state of the universe.

 

[CaptainJeanLucPicard]

No, it was messed up, and we have the messed up version at the moment. The secret ingredient is the spiritual component. The atomic structure will be different, yet it will be true gold in the original etrnal pure form.

Could you provide evidence for a "spiritual component?"

I disagree. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, written by John.

You don't believe that the seven headed dragon could be a metaphor?

This is every bit as scientific as claiming the sun will burn out. It pertains to the creation debate, this known coming change in the state of the universe.

The Sun will not "burn out" per se; it will only run out of fuel. It will be unable to fuse heavier elements into even heavier elements.

 

[Lord_Marx]

Dad seems to have missed the gumdrop trees, unicorns, and head-explody...

 

[Shakespeare]

While I appreciate you actually reading my comments and refraining (for the most part, I guess) from simply mocking me, might I suggest a single exclamation point, and only when needed? When you use a multitude of them after so many sentences, it dilutes the meaning of the mark to nothingness and reduces the effectiveness of its useage in your posts. It also leaves you vulnerable to mockery based on simple punctuation grounds, which would be a shame.

And while I respect your freedom to hold that you are in possession of the untimate truth as to the nature of the new creation, I might caution you to not become prideful of the knowledge you believe you have. Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are not. Frankly, I doubt the exactness of the rather sci-fi version you present, but the fact that I take the position that the exact nature of the new creation is not know to man, how can I state categorically that you are in error? I believe you are in error, but I also know that my beliefs are human beliefs, and are themselves subject to error, as are yours.

Only God is perfect, and any man who claims to know His mind perfectly is arrogant and dangerously foolish. (And I am not accusing you of that particular sin, so don't bother taking umbrage.)

And in the end, the precise nature of the new creation is simply not information I am in need of. There is a time for everything, and there will be a time for me to know this. I assume that time will be when I experience it, since I am no where near prideful enough to believe it will be necessary for me to know it before then.

 

[BeamMeUpScotty]

Could you provide evidence for a "spiritual component?"


You don't believe that the seven headed dragon could be a metaphor?


The Sun will not "burn out" per se; it will only run out of fuel. It will be unable to fuse heavier elements into even heavier elements.

Welcome.

Unfortunately, you showed your "newbieness" by asking Dad such things.

But have fun watching the run-around.

 

[CaptainJeanLucPicard]

Welcome.

Unfortunately, you showed your "newbieness" by asking Dad such things.

But have fun watching the run-around.

Thanks. I'll wait for it.

 

[RealityCheck]

Thanks. I'll wait for it.

Make sure you've taken 1000 mg of Advil. You're gonna need it.

 

[Grummpy]

dad

two words...PROVE IT!!!

Grumpy

 

[quantumspirit]

New Jerusalem is made of eternal transparent gold, and it will land on an eternal earth here.

In heaven, gold is pavement. Gold would be ideal pavement, because it is so soft that when cracks would otherwise appear, they would anneal themselves through normal use. As for transparent gold, forget it. Gold is a metal, which means it consists of a "sea of electrons" which immediately reflect incident photons.

In heavens that are eternal, and where trees gow a different fruit in some cases every single month of the year.
Human eternal bodies there will be composed of eternal matter, like the ressurected body of Jesus, that could appear, and go through doors, and yet was physical also, and could eat, and drink.

we would have to be composed of a whole different kind of matter, to be "physical" yet pass through doors, something other than the electrons, protons, neutrons, that we know now.

This means that Christians by and large accept that a different state of the universe is coming. This is what we believe. We the majority of Christians on earth.
A heaven where animals like lions will again eat straw like an ox, as originally created. A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly.

When pigs fly!

A place where angels and God walk, and live, as well as us.
A state unlike the present one.
We do not appreciate those who, with no possible evidence claim that our galaxy will crash, sun burn out, and earth fade away one day, especially to children.
Stop it please.

You're right! We have no right to indoctrinate our children with science. It is better to indocrinate them with fairy tales. At any rate, pass the shrooms.

 

[Crazy Liz]

New Jerusalem is made of eternal transparent gold, and it will land on an eternal earth here. In heavens that are eternal, and where trees gow a different fruit in some cases every single month of the year.
Human eternal bodies there will be composed of eternal matter, like the ressurected body of Jesus, that could appear, and go through doors, and yet was physical also, and could eat, and drink.
This means that Christians by and large accept that a different state of the universe is coming. This is what we believe. We the majority of Christians on earth.
A heaven where animals like lions will again eat straw like an ox, as originally created. A place where we can fly, even the horses can fly. A place where angels and God walk, and live, as well as us.
A state unlike the present one.
We do not appreciate those who, with no possible evidence claim that our galaxy will crash, sun burn out, and earth fade away one day, especially to children.
Stop it please.

I don't mind hearing other ideas.

 

[dad]

I don't mind hearing other ideas.

Hearing them, and having innocent children forced to learn them are different things, especially when the 'ideas' are garbed in robes of science.

 

[dad]

Could you provide evidence for a "spiritual component?"

Remember, we are now in a temporary state that is physical only! Therfore, indirect evidence is all we can look for. I present the fact that man has always, in a majority of numbers, through all history believed in the spiritual for billions of different reasons, that we feel were real. Why, do you have a speck of evidence against it??

You don't believe that the seven headed dragon could be a metaphor?

Well, it is the devil, that was in the heads of every world power mentioned there, and it spells them out in that book. It was a spiritual picture, not a physical dragon.

The Sun will not "burn out" per se; it will only run out of fuel. It will be unable to fuse heavier elements into even heavier elements.

Utterly false. What you really mean to say is that IF this state of PO went on for billions of years, that is what would happen. That is meaningless! Unless you can prove that it will go on!

 

[dad]

In heaven, gold is pavement. Gold would be ideal pavement, because it is so soft that when cracks would otherwise appear, they would anneal themselves through normal use. As for transparent gold, forget it. Gold is a metal, which means it consists of a "sea of electrons" which immediately reflect incident photons.

Think about it. If this present electron arrangement were to be carried into the etrnal new heavens, we would not have the new heavens!!! It is a whole new deal there.

we would have to be composed of a whole different kind of matter, to be "physical" yet pass through doors, something other than the electrons, protons, neutrons, that we know now.

Of course! The spiritual and the physical results in a new form of matter. Thank God, otherwise we would rot.

You're right! We have no right to indoctrinate our children with science. It is better to indocrinate them with fairy tales. At any rate, pass the shrooms.

Science begins and ends in the PO present. Please don't feed them manure, and keep them in the dark, like growing schrooms.

 

[ReverendDG]

Remember, we are now in a temporary state that is physical only! Therfore, indirect evidence is all we can look for. I present the fact that man has always, in a majority of numbers, through all history believed in the spiritual for billions of different reasons, that we feel were real. Why, do you have a speck of evidence against it??

doesn't there have to be a speck of evidence for it first? you can't prove a negetive

Well, it is the devil, that was in the heads of every world power mentioned there, and it spells them out in that book. It was a spiritual picture, not a physical dragon.

yes it was a metaphore for rome, being that was when it was writen and expected to happen, not in the future, as you think it will be

Utterly false. What you really mean to say is that IF this state of PO went on for billions of years, that is what would happen. That is meaningless! Unless you can prove that it will go on!

i guess evidence of other stars doing the same thing now doesn't count for you then?
the hubble has caught images of dying stars before, and mathimatically we have a pretty good estimate for how long the sun will exist as a yellow star, something close to 5 billion years?

just to tell you this, from history revelations wasn't even in the bible till well into the 4th century ad, or maybe 5th, its really not all that inspired
its full of mythical garbage mined from judiaism and pagan sources
look at the dragon, it represents chaos or tiamat or lothan, which was what the darkness in genesis was unpersified