Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

[Oldmantook]

You once again said...………..
"We have a choice - be saved in this life or be saved in the Lake of Fire."

NOPE! x a million!!!!!!

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

YUP! x a million!!!!!!

 

[Oldmantook]

Why have you failed again to address the fact that eternal punishment cannot be true which you used Matt 25:46 to support your failed view? You cannot afford to ignore the scriptural evidence that conflicts with your doctrine. The lake of fire is real but those who end up there, do not spend eternity there as you merely accept what you believe without doing your own due diligence. Most people are going to end up in hell - those whose names are not found in the book of life.The germane question pertinent to our discussion is HOW LONG they end up staying there?

Quite ironically, once again you cite a verse that you think supports your view but in reality undermines your belief. Matt 7:13-14 states: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
In the Greek, the word "find" in v.14 is heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες which is a present tense participle
Berean Literal Bible
For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it.
Therefore, based on the Greek grammar few are finding it at that time. This verse does not state or even imply that they will not find it (salvation) at some point in the future. So when you claim that "Jesus Christ said so!" make sure you understand what Jesus Christ really said!

Indeed; yeshuaslavejeff, funny that you have no counter-reply whatsoever!

 

[Oldmantook]

You see the Lake of Fire as a kind of purgatory? Would that not make those who go through that punishment atone for their own sins? Did not Jesus take the wrath due us?

No. The blood of Jesus is the only atonement for sin. We both know that no one can atone for their own sins. That is why Phil 2 declares:
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
Those in the LOF through chastisement will one day bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[Major1]

Anyone here in particular you are talking about?

EVERYONE!

 

[Major1]

No. The blood of Jesus is the only atonement for sin. We both know that no one can atone for their own sins. That is why Phil 2 declares:
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
Those in the LOF through chastisement will one day bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

Yes they will. However that does NOT mean that they will be able to change their location.

Specifically, Luke 16:26 says..... ,
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

Here, the very words of Jesus clearly note there is no option for changing our eternal destiny in the afterlife.

Our eternal destiny is determined by our earthly life. After this life, the only options that exist are eternity with Christ or eternity apart from Him.

This also negates the increasingly popular ideas of both annihilation and purgatory.

Annihilation is the idea that those who do not make it to heaven simply have their souls annihilated or disappear.

Purgatory is the Roman Catholic tradition based on the extra-biblical book of 2 Maccabees and church tradition that there is an area of "limbo" or transition in which souls can dwell and later reach heaven. Neither idea finds biblical support.

Philippians 2:10-11 declares that at the end of time...…...
"at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

One day, even those who oppose Jesus in this life with bow before Him. However, at that time it will be too late to change their situation. After death, all that remains for the unbeliever is judgment (Revelation 20:14-15). That is why we must trust in Him in this life.

Again.....I say that there is absolutely NO Scripture which suggests that anyone will be able to be saved while in the Lake of Fire and then leave such a place and go to heaven.

HELL IS A DEFINITE REAL PLACE.
HELL IS A PLACE OF TORMENTS.
THE GRAVE IS NOT HELL.
HELL IS A DEFINITE PLACE OF FIRE TORMENTS.
IS THERE NO HOPE OF ESCAPE FROM HELL?

 

[Major1]

Indeed; yeshuaslavejeff, funny that you have no counter-reply whatsoever!

Matthew 25:46 ……..
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I just can not help but ask that what part of "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" do you not understand?

 

[Oldmantook]

Matthew 25:46 ……..
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I just can not help but ask that what part of "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" do you not understand?

Did you not read my post?? Eternal punishment absolutely cannot mean eternal in that verse because the sheep-goat judgment in Matt 25:46 refers to the judgment that lasts for a millennium - the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. 1,000 years is not equal to eternity. What part of that do you not understand?
Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes they will. However that does NOT mean that they will be able to change their location.
Specifically, Luke 16:26 says..... ,
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

Again.....I say that there is absolutely NO Scripture which suggests that anyone will be able to be saved while in the Lake of Fire and then leave such a place and go to heaven.

That covenantle parable/story is my largest study in the Bible. Thks for bringing it up.

Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.......................................

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Matthew 23:
15 'Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming,ye are making him a son of gehenna twofold more of yourselves.
33 "Serpents! brood of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:

Luke 16:26
And upon all of these between us[NC Grace/Faith/Life] and ye[OC Law/Death] a great chasm[the Cross?] hath been established
so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224>hence toward ye no may be able,
neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>

Hebrews 11:29
By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the 11th chapter of Romans. He tells us that God has blinded the Jews and "given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8). He goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25).
In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul says that the Jews' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).
========================
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Threads on that parable/story:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/lazarus-and-the-rich-man.4437955/
Lazarus and the rich man C A C Dec 21 2006 [close]

What is parable of Lazarus Rich Man about
What is parable of Lazarus Rich Man about March 8 2006 [closed]

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable GT Nov 6, 2008 [closed]

Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)
Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2) GT Jan 22, 2013

Luke 16:19 and the Rich-Man
Luke 16:19 and the Rich-Man GT Jul 31, 2009

Luke 16:24 why is the rich man calling out to Father Abraham?
Luke 16:24 why is the rich man calling out to Father Abraham? GT Feb 25 2011

Rich Man of Luke 16 symbolizes House of Judah, the Jews?
Rich Man of Luke 16 symbolizes House of Judah, the Jews? GT Mar 18 2013

Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?
Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT? GT Aug 17, 2017

Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham?
Why is the Rich-Man in Luke 16:24 calling out to Abraham? CS Jun 29, 2018

What about the rich man tormented in a flame Luke 16:24
What about the rich man tormented in a flame Luke 16:24 CS Jun 27, 2018

Commentary - The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/lazarus.html
http://the-true-jw.oltenia.ro/lazarus.html
L. Ray Smith - Lazarus and the Rich Man

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form. It is argued, because it reads, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day,” that Christ is speaking here of an actual incident that took place. But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...” Yet it is generally conceded that the story of the prodigal son is a parable and all the fundamentalist preachers love to preach from its beautiful figures, thus applying it as a parable.

Then why was the singular used - “this parable”? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

THE RICH MAN

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is without question one of the least understood of all the teachings of our Lord. What is its aim? It is a similitude of something; for all the parables are similitudes, even though, like the parables of the prodigal son, and the unjust steward, both of which are in direct connection with this one, they are uttered like simple narratives, always beginning with, “A certain man,” or “There was a certain man.” Of what, then, is this parable the similitude? Whom does the rich man represent? Who is the poor neglected beggar full of sores, lying at the rich man’s gate?

This story was never intended to be Jesus’ belief and teaching on heaven and hell, but Jesus was holding up to ridicule all the teaching and spirit of the Pharisees and scribes and doctors of the law. It is real satire - par excellence!

==============================

 

[FineLinen]

Matthew 25:46 ……..
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I just can not help but ask that what part of "ETERNAL PUNISHMENT" do you not understand?

Dear Country Boy: Glad you asked.

The aionios part

 

[Hillsage]

Dear Country Boy: Glad you asked.

The aionios part

My dear FL, I am going to have to disagree with you. You DO understand the aionios part. It is they who keep quoting the translations of naive sheep who do not understand.

 

[redleghunter]

No. The blood of Jesus is the only atonement for sin. We both know that no one can atone for their own sins. That is why Phil 2 declares:
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
Those in the LOF through chastisement will one day bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

So it will happen when Jesus returns? And they will be forced to accept Him at that point like “Calvinist robots?”

 

[Hillsage]

So it will happen when Jesus returns? And they will be forced to accept Him at that point like “Calvinist robots?”

They’ll be as ‘forced’ as Thomas without faith...or Saul/Paul. Whatever it takes. I just know that if my dad was blinded, spoken to audibly and miraculously healed he would have believed. And I trust that my God is not a respecter of men. He does all according to the council of his will. And not the will of the church that invented the lie told so many times it’s swallowed as the truth.

 

[FineLinen]

My dear FL, I am going to have to disagree with you. You DO understand the aionios part. It is they who keep quoting the translations of naive sheep who do not understand.

Dear Sage: This is a new experience for me. No one on these
forums disagree with anything I post.

Please go easy on the naive sheep

 

[Elixir]

Did you not read my post?? Eternal punishment absolutely cannot mean eternal in that verse because the sheep-goat judgment in Matt 25:46 refers to the judgment that lasts for a millennium - the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. 1,000 years is not equal to eternity. What part of that do you not understand?
Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Edit: Replying more or less to the conversation than to your specific post Oldmantook, it's just very summative .

There still seems to be a loose end though with when considering the age-during aspect of judgment. What is the fate of our eternal (age-during) soul if what we go through after judgment is age-during too? I can see that with the second death in the lake of fire (where even death and hell are destroyed) would simply mean annihilation, but what about the saints in Christ having an eternal (but age-during) existence? Is the Bible clear on whether anyone or anything gets an everlasting existence besides the Trinity (Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my word shall not)?

All of this begs the question of whether or not there is a hidden element of reincarnation to take into the above (which I'm highly interested in), but perhaps the Bible doesn't speak to it directly because judgment for each life is complete for that life, and so it matters little in practice. Whether or not the soul would get x number of lives, it would all come down to final judgment and whether or not one would be cast into the lake of fire or go onto the next age, and the reincarnate through ages of existence. Again, even if there is reincarnation, the threat of the lake of fire destroying one's soul, even if one were to possibly get a new one and somehow have a continuation of consciousness, for all intensive purposes we're trying to define "clinical death" here when it comes to salvation / damnation, and I think falling into the lake of fire counts as clinical death.

Finally, I want to emphasize that there would be, axiomatically, real loss / a real cost to be had with punishment (κόλασις) from sin, and real gain to be had with victory in Christ. It's just that with too lovey-dovey of a perspective on fate and destiny, the consequences of nothing seems to matter, reality itself loses its quality of significance, and its realness and substance is challenged. I would think that even for Christians we will know and reap all that we do, so after I have accepted Christ and walk in His commandments, there is still more to be done to the Glory of God. There's still a chance of stumbling and losing all that I've worked for, even if everyone's ultimately covered.

 

[hedrick]

Those in the LOF through chastisement will one day bow and confess Jesus as Lord.

That's very unlikely to be what Paul means. Confessing Christ as Lord means having him as your savior. It is, as one commentary on this passage points out, the earliest Christian confession of faith. "no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3)

Note that this passage is a quotation of Is 45:23, which is explicitly about salvation.

Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
“To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.”

The Word commentary on Phil seems to want to avoid universalism. They do it not by an odd understanding of confessing Christ, but by saying that this passage describes a hope which may not be fulfilled. I don't find that plausible for Phil 2:11, but I guess it's possible for Is 45.

 

[Hillsage]

That's very unlikely to be what Paul means. Confessing Christ as Lord means having him as your savior.

I believe 'confessing' initially only saves my spirit. Walking in His Lordship is for the salvation of my soul, which is still in the 'doing' process.

~Build Your House on the Rock LUK 6:46 "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

It is, as one commentary on this passage points out, the earliest Christian confession of faith. "no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3)

I would have no problem thinking that the job of the Holy Spirit in the next age with be no different than in this age. That being to "convict, of sin, of righteousness, and judgment." IOW all that is "worldly" in us. He did the same thing in the age of the OT law through the prophets/law, I surmise. But the only salvation they had available was from worldly enemies. A hereafter salvation doesn't seem to be revealed. Indeed the Sadducees didn't even believe in a resurrection. Only temporal salvation from worldly enemies seems agreed upon by both I think. But the salvation of the OT was not the salvation of the NT and the salvation of the next age will have its own revealing of the fullness of God to all and for all to the fullest degree of glory IMO.

I'm 'supposing' on some of the above. Maybe you are better versed in the historical record, and I'm way off track. Either way, I will appreciate 'confirmation' or 'clarification' either way.

 

[Oldmantook]

So it will happen when Jesus returns? And they will be forced to accept Him at that point like “Calvinist robots?”

Those thrown into the lake of fire still have to make their choice as to whether to bow their knee and confess with their tongue. They will eventually make that choice but after how long, who knows? I suppose someone with a long laundry list of sins will spend more time there that someone with a short list. Robots have no such choice.

 

[Major1]

Dear Country Boy: Glad you asked.

The aionios part

If the meaning of one word is what you hang your hat on, I suggest you try something else.



Aionios: In the New Testament, aionios is often used with the meaning "eternal," in the predominant sense of futurity.

Our Lord decisively set the element of time in abeyance, and took His stand upon the fact and quality of life--life endless by its own nature. Of that eternal life He is Himself the guarantee--"Because I live, ye shall live also" (John 14:19).

Therefore said Augustine, "Join thyself to the eternal God, and thou wilt be eternal."
The Eternal Fate of Unbelievers | Jesus313.com

 

[FineLinen]

If the meaning of one word is what you hang your hat on, I suggest you try something else.

Aionios: In the New Testament, aionios is often used with the meaning "eternal," in the predominant sense of futurity.

Our Lord decisively set the element of time in abeyance, and took His stand upon the fact and quality of life--life endless by its own nature. Of that eternal life He is Himself the guarantee--"Because I live, ye shall live also" (John 14:19).

Therefore said Augustine, "Join thyself to the eternal God, and thou wilt be eternal."
The Eternal Fate of Unbelievers | Jesus313.com

Dear Country Boy: Our hat had best be upon the Aidios God of Glory! Anything else will bring dismal reward.

I will ask you one more time>>>

If aionios means everlastingness, why is it in the plural form of aion from which it comes?

Further:

Can you disclose what before aionios means?

"This IS life aionios that we may know You..."

 

[Elixir]

Edit: oof I meant to quote FL's post too (was arguing in favor your post Major1), I was specifically focusing on the (aionios) part of the discussion

Dear Country Boy: Glad you asked.

The aionios part

If the meaning of one word is what you hang your hat on, I suggest you try something else.



Aionios: In the New Testament, aionios is often used with the meaning "eternal," in the predominant sense of futurity.

Our Lord decisively set the element of time in abeyance, and took His stand upon the fact and quality of life--life endless by its own nature. Of that eternal life He is Himself the guarantee--"Because I live, ye shall live also" (John 14:19).

Therefore said Augustine, "Join thyself to the eternal God, and thou wilt be eternal."
The Eternal Fate of Unbelievers | Jesus313.com

Even if "eternal" may mean age - duration, I would like to add that the language / wording of the fate of many falling into the lake of fire omits time / duration (except for fallen angels perhaps, who appear to get greater punishment) and instead uses "second death." This, I presume, is the death of one's soul and so it sounds like erasure. Edit: The only element of time in this perhaps is that being destroyed in the lake of fire may not be an instantaneous process and be a tormenting experience.


Revelation 20:11–15 (NASB95)

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Edit: We also have at the beginning of this excerpt that there was no place found for these souls at the great white throne of judgment. Everything needs a place of some kind to exist in, right? So, if there is no place for something to exist, then what else can be done for such souls but destruction?