Materialism and the inherent ignorance of atomistic knowing

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Definitions
Materialism: The monistic philosophical position that assumes all reality is, and only can be, matter. Matter is ultimately reducible to elementary particles as understood by our current scientific models.

Atomistic knowing: Knowledge gained by understanding the constitutive elements of things and events.

Post claim
Among materialists, there is a prejudicial preference for atomistic knowing. There is a tacit assumption that a thing or event is only really known if its constituent elements and properties are understood. Moreover, any other knowing must be reducible to this kind of knowing. For example, it is common among materialists to want to reduce human cognition/human consciousness to the constituent workings of the human brain. So, the assumption goes, if we want to know and understand the human mind, we need only investigate the human brain. However, atomistic knowing entails an asymmetric ignorance.

I can deconstruct a thing or event and understand its constituent elements and their properties. However, if all I knew were the constituent elements and their properties, I would not be able to reconstruct the thing or event.

Two Examples
Example 1: If all I knew (understood) were the respective properties of hydrogen and oxygen, I would not be able to guess the properties that would emerge when two atoms of hydrogen are bonded to an atom of oxygen. In other words, merely knowing the properties of those two elements would not enable me to foresee the properties of water (e.g. wetness, or its various states under various conditions). Moreover, simply knowing the properties of those elements would not enable me to foresee water's benefits and uses (e.g. the health benefits to living organisms, it's uses by humans, etc.). This example comes from C.D. Broad and I will post his quote and the source in the thread.

Example 2: The No-Driving Big Truck Mechanic
Imagine a big truck mechanic who knows every and all the constituent elements of a truck. She can tear down an engine and rebuild it. If something goes wrong, she is flawless in pinpointing the issue and being able to fix it. She understands every element the drive train, the exhaust system, the cooling system, the electrical system, the computer system, all of it. She is a top big truck mechanic.

However, she can't drive a big truck. She couldn't back a trailer if her life depended on it. She doesn't understand show to properly load a truck. She doesn't know how to drive a tractor-trailer in various weather conditions or in traffic. She has no idea what it is like trying to navigate a bunch of "four-wheelers" who think big trucks can stop on a dime.

Does this big truck mechanic know trucks? She certainly knows them in an atomistic sense, but does she really know trucks if she can't even drive one? To be fair, there are plenty of no mechanic-ing big truck drivers. So, we can also question their knowing. It would seem someone who really knows big trucks would have knowledge that entails both. Whatever the case, what the example is intended to show, in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek way, is the asymmetrical ignorance of atomistic knowing in that knowing the constituents of a thing does not entail knowing the thing, its emergent properties, its uses, and its value as that thing.

There is no doubt that an atomistic approach to understanding has greatly benefited us. But, it has an inherent blindspot. Materialists who have a prejudicial preference for this kind of knowing, by default, neglect a reality that is greater than its constituent parts. Reductionism, in particular, is simply wrong headed.

I'll close with some remarks concerning the tendency for materialists to reduce cognition/consciousness to the constituent elements and processes of the brain. It is common to hear terms like "emergent" and "supervenience." The idea is that if B is reducible to A, and B has properties that are not found in A, then the properties of B supervene over A. Or again, if B has properties not found in A, then those properties emerged from A in B. I consider words like "emergent" and "supervenience" to be working words that do no work. If you say, "Consciousness emerges from the brain," what have you really said? That they are related? That one somehow depends on the other? Okay, we all knew that. You still haven't explained anything. Words like "emergent" and "supervenience" are simply place holders for we-know-not-what.

Any thoughts?
 

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The promised CD Broad quote:

"Oxygen has certain properties and Hydrogen has certain other properties. They combine to form water, and the proportions in which they do this are fixed. Nothing that we know about Oxygen by itself or in its combinations with anything but Hydrogen would give us the least reason to suppose that it would combine with Hydrogen at all. Nothing that we know about Hydrogen by itself or in its combinations with anything but Oxygen would give us the least reason to expect that it would combine with Oxygen at all. And most of the chemical and physical properties of water have no known connexion, either quantitative or qualitative, with those of Oxygen and Hydrogen. Here we have a clear instance of a case where, so far as we can tell, the properties of a whole composed of two constituents could not have been predicted from a knowledge of the properties of these constituents taken separately, or from this combined with a knowledge of the properties of other wholes which contain these constituents. Let us sum up the conclusions which may be reached from these examples before going further. It is clear that in no case could the behaviour of a whole composed of certain constituents be predicted merely from a knowledge of the properties of these constituents, taken separately, and of their proportions and arrangements in the particular complex under consideration. Whenever this seems to be possible it is because we are using a suppressed premise which is so familiar that it has escaped our notice" (C.D. Broad; The Mind and It's Place In Nature, Routledge 2013, p.63).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Any thoughts?
Don't collect stuff of the world, even in the mind.
Instead, think on things pure, gentle, true, wise, from above, ... ... ...

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever ...
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think on these things.
Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Finally. Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure ...
James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, and sincere.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above . . .--Whereas, in sweetest contrast to all this repulsive foulness and riot, the true wisdom from above is first pure, chaste as the Lamb of God, "the Word made flesh" (), then peaceful, gentle, and compliant--easy to be won, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not double-minded (non duplex), nor hypocritical.
 
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public hermit

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Don't collect stuff of the world, even in the mind.
Instead, think on things pure, gentle, true, wise, from above, ... ... ...

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever ...
Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think on these things.
Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Finally. Philippians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord.

James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure ...
James 3:17 But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, gentle, accommodating, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial, and sincere.
(17) But the wisdom that is from above . . .--Whereas, in sweetest contrast to all this repulsive foulness and riot, the true wisdom from above is first pure, chaste as the Lamb of God, "the Word made flesh" (), then peaceful, gentle, and compliant--easy to be won, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not double-minded (non duplex), nor hypocritical.

I take it you mean I shouldn't think about these kinds of things. Too late, Jeff. Where were you when I needed this guidance? ;)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I take it you mean I shouldn't think about these kinds of things. Too late, Jeff. Where were you when I needed this guidance?
People with cancer or gallstones, etc, keep asking me that question too..... then they proceed to recover ! (if they do what is right)
I don't understand God's Timing a lot of times, and consider that or wonder if I should have "spoken up" sooner, more, but "how" ?
 
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public hermit

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People with cancer or gallstones, etc, keep asking me that question too..... then they proceed to recover ! (if they do what is right)
I don't understand God's Timing a lot of times, and consider that or wonder if I should have "spoken up" sooner, more, but "how" ?

You're fine. I was kidding. I appreciate your concern.
 
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durangodawood

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The promised CD Broad quote:

"Oxygen has certain properties and Hydrogen has certain other properties. They combine to form water, and the proportions in which they do this are fixed. Nothing that we know about Oxygen by itself or in its combinations with anything but Hydrogen would give us the least reason to suppose that it would combine with Hydrogen at all. Nothing that we know about Hydrogen by itself or in its combinations with anything but Oxygen would give us the least reason to expect that it would combine with Oxygen at all. And most of the chemical and physical properties of water have no known connexion, either quantitative or qualitative, with those of Oxygen and Hydrogen. Here we have a clear instance of a case where, so far as we can tell, the properties of a whole composed of two constituents could not have been predicted from a knowledge of the properties of these constituents taken separately, or from this combined with a knowledge of the properties of other wholes which contain these constituents. Let us sum up the conclusions which may be reached from these examples before going further. It is clear that in no case could the behaviour of a whole composed of certain constituents be predicted merely from a knowledge of the properties of these constituents, taken separately, and of their proportions and arrangements in the particular complex under consideration. Whenever this seems to be possible it is because we are using a suppressed premise which is so familiar that it has escaped our notice" (C.D. Broad; The Mind and It's Place In Nature, Routledge 2013, p.63).
So is it fair to call the behavior of water an "emergent" property?
 
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So is it fair to call the behavior of water an "emergent" property?

I certainly have no problem calling it "emergent" just so it is understood that by doing so we haven't said much. I use the term, but I don't understand it to be explanatory. That water and its constituent elements are related is obvious enough. That the emergent properties of water in some sense depend on its constituent elements is obvious enough, as well. That those second order properties are fully explained by water's constituent elements, that is where I think we have trouble. Just as I don't believe that the "emergent" properties of mind are fully explained by the constituent elements and processes of the brain.

To be clear, I don't have the answers we want. But, I think the reductionist approach is wrong-headed because if there are other ways to explain second order properties, the atomistic approach won't ever discover it. Really the big player in this conversation is the so-called "hard problem" of consciousness. Or, at least, that is what is always in the back of my mind as I think about these issues.
 
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Really the big player in this conversation is the so-called "hard problem" of consciousness.
I don't see the brain as the source of consciousness as much as it is an interface at the consciousness' disposal, even bound to it (in this life).
 
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durangodawood

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...Among materialists, there is a prejudicial preference for atomistic knowing. There is a tacit assumption that a thing or event is only really known if its constituent elements and properties are understood....
I would strongly contest that any materialist finds reductionism a sufficient investigative strategy.

I mean, what biologist ever would propose that his field should study just molecular components in isolation?

Some biologists may professionally specialize in molecular interactions. Others in physiological arrangements. Others in whole ecosystems. But I dont see any principled dismissal of any of the different "levels" of study among materialists generally.
 
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I don't see the brain as the source of consciousness as much as it is an interface at the consciousness' disposal, even bound to it (in this life).

That's an interesting approach. I agree that consciousness is bound to it. Every time I have been knocked out, which has been a few times, I wasn't there until I "came to." The intimate connection between the brain and consciousness is pretty clear to me.

I would like to hear more about what you mean by the brain as the "interface" of consciousness. Is that taken from computer jargon?
 
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Sabertooth

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Is that taken from computer jargon?
More like the related programmable controller [PLC]. PLCs are used in automation. They have sensors and can activate/de-activate devices that they are connected to. Those decisions are made by the software that they are running at any given time. Software has no mass.

Likewise, consciousness has no mass, either. Unlike software, consciousness exhibits a personal will, including subjective preferences like favorite color, music, food, etc.

Restated, the brain is hardware. The mind is [living] software.
 
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I mean, what biologist ever would propose that his field should study just molecular components in isolation?

A biologist might not do that. But, a chemist might. A physicist might hold that both are reducible to physics. Whatever the case, there are certainly live debates the possibility of such reductive approaches. One approach is to try and formulate "bridge laws" to make the appropriate connections between, say, biology and physics. But, I think, the "soft" sciences like psychology are more often the targets of a reductionisitic approach.

Reductionism in Biology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

How Psychologists Use Reductionism to Understand Behavior

Reductionism in the Philosophy of Mind | Encyclopedia.com
 
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More like the related programmable controller [PLC]. PLCs are used in automation. They have sensors and can activate/de-activate devices that they are connected to. Those decisions are made by the software that they are running at any given time. Software has no mass.

Likewise, consciousness has no mass, either. Unlike software, consciousness exhibits a personal will, including subjective preferences like favorite color, music, food, etc.

I see. That sounds like functionalism. "Functionalism in the philosophy of mind is the doctrine that what makes something a mental state of a particular type does not depend on its internal constitution, but rather on the way it functions, or the role it plays, in the system of which it is a part."

Functionalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
 
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....I'll close with some remarks concerning the tendency for materialists to reduce cognition/consciousness to the constituent elements and processes of the brain. It is common to hear terms like "emergent" and "supervenience." The idea is that if B is reducible to A, and B has properties that are not found in A, then the properties of B supervene over A. Or again, if B has properties not found in A, then those properties emerged from A in B. I consider words like "emergent" and "supervenience" to be working words that do no work. If you say, "Consciousness emerges from the brain," what have you really said? That they are related? That one somehow depends on the other? Okay, we all knew that. You still haven't explained anything. Words like "emergent" and "supervenience" are simply place holders for we-know-not-what....
Another thing... I often hear the objection that "emergent" doesnt explain anything. But its not supposed to. "Emergent" is not an explanation. Its a description of a whole category of explanations.

For particular explanations, we have to look at each specific case of emergence.
 
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Another thing... I often hear the objection that "emergent" doesnt explain anything. But... its not supposed to. "Emergent" is not an explanation. Its a description of a whole category of explanations.

For particular explanations, we have to look at each specific case of emergence.

I hadn't thought about it that way. I'm not sure how much it helps. In the couple of instances I have mentioned it doesn't explain. But, maybe there are some emergent properties whose emergence are explained. Do you have examples?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I don't see the brain as the source of consciousness as much as it is an interface at the consciousness' disposal, even bound to it (in this life).
I think one of the only or few teachers in history, Scripturally, relating to this sort of thing (the mind, soul, spirit, flesh interactions) was watchman nee. (available online several places, several different lessons/books pdf or other) .
 
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