Material on foreign nation’s nuclear capabilities seized at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago

Ceallaigh

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I'm not saying he couldn't -- but again, the information would be sent to the SCIF at Mar-A-Lago securely, not taken there by the President, and kept in the SCIF (not allowed to be removed from the SCIF). Anything classified would have been returned to Washington when the SCIF was deactivated/dismantled.
Do he carry out the boxes himself?
 
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Hans Blaster

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You were headed the right direction...

Yep. And yet Trump held onto the originals, even after they were subpoenaed, because he planned on trading them to the Russian cartel for debt forgiveness and or to sell them to the Saudis. Because even though he can orchestrate that, he doesn't know what a photocopier is. Or couldn't figure out how to photo them with a phone. I've photographed documents with instructions and schedules for a quick and easy look up on my phone.

... and you missed.

Let's try again:

Sensitive documents... insecure location where just any H1-B can copy them...

Possessing them without authorization... Is. A. Crime.

Possessing then legally, but failing to secure from unauthorized persons... Is. A. Crime.

So just because he didn't (as far as we know) make illegal copies or intentionally share them (also... Is. A. Crime.) doesn't mean that crimes of insecure storage or illegal possession haven't occurred.
 
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SimplyMe

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Do he carry out the boxes himself?

No, but he directed what was packed. Those doing the packing don't have any time to even look at what they are packing. Essentially, the old President's possessions are packed and moved out during the Inauguration ceremony, and the new President's possessions moved in right after -- before the new President can make it to the White House after the inauguration.

While we don't entirely know how the various classified documents got to Mar-A-Lago, it does appear that Pres. Trump removed many of them from secure areas and moved them to the Residence (which is not supposed to be done). We have various aides of Pres. Trump who told us he took classified documents to the residence, as well as the fact that some of these Classified documents appear to have been packed with items from the Residence (which is a reason the FBI removed personal documents and clothes, because the took the boxes which had been packed in the residence and, since they contained Classified documents the boxes were taken).

Of course, it doesn't matter if Pres. Trump "packed" them -- the fact that Classified documents were found places like his desk and that the "informants" apparently gave them reason to search his and Melania's bedrooms and other "personal" areas tells us the former President knew and wanted the Classified documents -- not to mention the fact he didn't turn them over as the subpoena required.
 
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Ceallaigh

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You were headed the right direction...



... and you missed.

Let's try again:

Sensitive documents... insecure location where just any H1-B can copy them...

Possessing them without authorization... Is. A. Crime.

Possessing then legally, but failing to secure from unauthorized persons... Is. A. Crime.

So just because he didn't (as far as we know) make illegal copies or intentionally share them (also... Is. A. Crime.) doesn't mean that crimes of insecure storage or illegal possession haven't occurred.
The problem is the actual wrongdoing wasn't siliceous enough, so many supported cockamamie conspiracy theories about what he planned to do with the documents. That's what I've been addressing.
 
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Ceallaigh

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No, but he directed what was packed. Those doing the packing don't have any time to even look at what they are packing. Essentially, the old President's possessions are packed and moved out during the Inauguration ceremony, and the new President's possessions moved in right after -- before the new President can make it to the White House after the inauguration.

While we don't entirely know how the various classified documents got to Mar-A-Lago, it does appear that Pres. Trump removed many of them from secure areas and moved them to the Residence (which is not supposed to be done). We have various aides of Pres. Trump who told us he took classified documents to the residence, as well as the fact that some of these Classified documents appear to have been packed with items from the Residence (which is a reason the FBI removed personal documents and clothes, because the took the boxes which had been packed in the residence and, since they contained Classified documents the boxes were taken).

Of course, it doesn't matter if Pres. Trump "packed" them -- the fact that Classified documents were found places like his desk and that the "informants" apparently gave them reason to search his and Melania's bedrooms and other "personal" areas tells us the former President knew and wanted the Classified documents -- not to mention the fact he didn't turn them over as the subpoena required.
They ransacked his wife's and teenage son's bedrooms because it was a raid, and they were looking for anything possibly incriminating they could get their hands on. That's how raids work.
 
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Pommer

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The problem is the actual wrongdoing wasn't siliceous enough, so many supported cockamamie conspiracy theories about what he planned to do with the documents. That's what I've been addressing.
And we’ve been saying “it doesn’t enter into it as to why he had possession of these documents, but only that he had the documents”.
 
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Pommer

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They ransacked his wife's and teenage son's bedrooms because it was a raid, and they were looking for anything possibly incriminating they could get their hands on. That's how raids work.
It wasn’t a “raid”, it was an execution of a search warrant.
 
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Ceallaigh

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And we’ve been saying “it doesn’t enter into it as to why he had possession of these documents, but only that he had the documents”.
Obviously if that was the case there wouldn't have been so much hubbub across the internet about him selling "nuclear documents". It seems a more realistic statement should be "'We've given up on those conspiracy theories, and are now just sticking with he had the documents".
 
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disciple Clint

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If Trump stole the boxes of documents, then there would be no point of copying them. Before he left the white house. Ignoring wrong behavior isn't the right thing to do, especially if Trump plan to sell classified material to other countries. That up to the law to do, it has nothing to with what we want. Also stealing and refusing to give back classified material back to the government, isn't making something out of nothing. Everyone knows this is wrong, very bad. And we need to make sure this never happens again.
At this point we do not know if it happened the first time let alone again. Wait for the actual facts to come out instead of jumping to conclusions.
 
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disciple Clint

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You are making this both too easy and too difficult, even though those seem to contradict each other.

It isn't that easy to "take a picture with a phone" of the classified documents, since phones, cameras, and other electronic devices are generally not allowed in SCIFs, where the documents are kept -- and the exceptions are for secure devices (such as computers, copiers, etc, that are needed for the work being done). Your suggestion of just copying or taking a picture is not that easy -- the controls on those types of items in a SCIF tend to be extreme.

At the same time, if the President wants to share Classified information it is quite easy -- he simply shows the actual classified documents with whoever he wants, such as documents President Trump was reported to have shared with Russian officials visiting the White House. If a President wants to "sell" Classified documents to anyone, there isn't anyone that can really stop him (other than Congress impeaching the President, at which point he could be tried legally) -- but that prosecution can only be done after the fact, after the President has been impeached for already having sold (or tried to sell) information.

OTOH, a former President should have a difficult time sharing Classified documents as he should no longer have any -- or even unclassified documents from his Presidency (other than copies supplied by the National Archive). Granted, that wouldn't stop a former President from "selling," or just sharing, classified information that he can recall.
I would simply suggest that if the President can move those documents to his home, which we are being told that he may have done it would certainly not be difficult to photo copy them, we need to face the fact that this whole thing is not logical. And all the information on the handling of classified information means little to nothing if you can walk out the front door with a box full of classified information and move it to Florida.
 
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Whyayeman

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we need to face the fact that this whole thing is not logical

I agree with that. Why Trump had such documents scattered about his house is a mystery. Why he has put in vigorous efforts to hang on to them is another. None of it makes much sense. Logic has never been Trump's strong point; maybe seeking a logical reason is a waste of time. maybe he just took them because he could.

all the information on the handling of classified information means little to nothing if you can walk out the front door with a box full of classified information

I am trying to picture Trump carrying boxes, anywhere, any time. I think he has had people for that sort of thing for many years. More likely, a task force of minions at the White House obeyed an executive order.
None of how they got to Mar-a-Lago matters much. What matters is that they were there and Trump wanted to keep them, long after he had any legitimate reason (if he ever did).
 
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RDKirk

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I would simply suggest that if the President can move those documents to his home, which we are being told that he may have done it would certainly not be difficult to photo copy them, we need to face the fact that this whole thing is not logical. And all the information on the handling of classified information means little to nothing if you can walk out the front door with a box full of classified information and move it to Florida.

Nothing you said there--nothing about photocopying or how they were moved--is relevant at all. If there were classified government documents at Mar-a-Lago (and that includes copies), they were there illegally.
 
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disciple Clint

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I agree with that. Why Trump had such documents scattered about his house is a mystery. Why he has put in vigorous efforts to hang on to them is another. None of it makes much sense. Logic has never been Trump's strong point; maybe seeking a logical reason is a waste of time. maybe he just took them because he could.



I am trying to picture Trump carrying boxes, anywhere, any time. I think he has had people for that sort of thing for many years. More likely, a task force of minions at the White House obeyed an executive order.
None of how they got to Mar-a-Lago matters much. What matters is that they were there and Trump wanted to keep them, long after he had any legitimate reason (if he ever did).
Many of those questions will be answered when all the facts come out instead of just those things that are leaked for political advantage.
 
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disciple Clint

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Nothing you said there--nothing about photocopying or how they were moved--is relevant at all. If there were classified government documents at Mar-a-Lago (and that includes copies), they were there illegally.
Maybe, that has yet to be established
 
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cow451

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They ransacked his wife's and teenage son's bedrooms because it was a raid, and they were looking for anything possibly incriminating they could get their hands on. That's how raids work.
They were searching within the legal bounds of the warrant. The defense can argue admissibility in court. Which is kinda funny given the lawyers and Trump have admitted possession. They can argue that the FBI planted evidence but good luck on that since they are also arguing that he had a right to have them and had performed the classification or declassification ritual, depending on whether it is an even or odd day of the month unless a lunar cycle takes precedence.
 
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Yttrium

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They were searching within the legal bounds of the warrant. The defense can argue admissibility in court. Which is kinda funny given the lawyers and Trump have admitted possession. They can argue that the FBI planted evidence but good luck on that since they are also arguing that he had a right to have them and had performed the classification or declassification ritual, depending on whether it is an even or odd day of the month unless a lunar cycle takes precedence.

So did Trump declassify the documents that the FBI planted in his residence before or after the FBI printed them out from Hillary's e-mails? This gets so confusing...
 
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Hans Blaster

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The problem is the actual wrongdoing wasn't siliceous enough, so many supported cockamamie conspiracy theories about what he planned to do with the documents. That's what I've been addressing.

If were all in agreement that he had the documents and blocked attempts to retrieve them, I'm OK with that.
 
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