Material on foreign nation’s nuclear capabilities seized at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago

[Pommer]

I'm sure that's probably the case. But that scenario does take what happened further away from pilfering. I figure it was most likely alright for him to retain those documents outside of the White House, and the problem is after his term in office, he didn't turn them over to NARA as required.

Oh? So you’re saying that he’d had documents at MAL there, waiting for him to act upon them during the second term that he was sure to have had?
No.
If he needs the documents then the documents will be at MAL while he is there, after he leaves, the documents “leave” too.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Oh? So you’re saying that he’d had documents at MAL there, waiting for him to act upon them during the second term that he was sure to have had?
No.
If he needs the documents then the documents will be at MAL while he is there, after he leaves, the documents “leave” too.

You just made up an argument that wasn't mine and then refuted it.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Let me make this too simple is Trump wanted to steal documents for some nefarious purpose such as passing them to a foreign government he could have easily photo copied them while he was president and passed the copies along to anyone, so let us not try to make something out of nothing.

No that's too logical and obvious. And it doesn't fit in with conspiracy theories.

 

[Pommer]

You just made up an argument that wasn't mine and then refuted it.

Then I am seriously misunderstanding what you are saying. But seeings as how you don’t seem to want to spell it out for us, I’ll quit speculating and let you go about your evening.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Then I am seriously misunderstanding what you are saying. But seeings as how you don’t seem to want to spell it out for us, I’ll quit speculating and let you go about your evening.

What's difficult to understand about, "I figure it was most likely alright for him to retain those documents outside of the White House, and the problem is after his term in office, he didn't turn them over to NARA as required."?

 

[Pommer]

What's difficult to understand about, "I figure it was most likely alright for him to retain those documents outside of the White House, and the problem is after his term in office, he didn't turn them over to NARA as required."?

Because from my understanding of the story this isn’t what had happened.
Okay, maybe there already were some NARA-needed documents at MAL? (WHO KNOWS?)
My understanding was that a good many of these records were in the White House until Trump and his agents moved them to MAL, around the time of January 20th 2021, fully knowing that he wouldn’t be President, fully knowing that he didn’t have a right to be in possession of these documents after noon of that day.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Because from my understanding of the story this isn’t what had happened.
Okay, maybe there already were some NARA-needed documents at MAL? (WHO KNOWS?)
My understanding was that a good many of these records were in the White House until Trump and his agents moved them to MAL, around the time of January 20th 2021, fully knowing that he wouldn’t be President, fully knowing that he didn’t have a right to be in possession of these documents after noon of that day.

Right. But I think it's more likely he thought he had the right to do so, rather than it being a covert theft operation. Like I and many others have pointed out from the beginning, he could have just made photocopies and then given the originals back if he was planning on selling the info. Nobody would know he had copies of everything, except maybe a lackey or two.

 

[Whyayeman]

I think it's more likely he thought he had the right to do so, rather than it being a covert theft operation.

I think that is very unlikely. If he had just made a mistake it could very easily rectified. Picture the scene...

January 21st 2022

DOJ: 'There appear to be some classified documents missing. Did you take them away from the White House yesterday?'
Trump: 'Sorry. My mistake.'
DOJ: 'That's all right, Mr President, we'll send a van round. Sorted.'

It didn't happen like that. Instead there are lawyers buzzing round to protect Trump from the consequences in September.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I think that is very unlikely. If he had just made a mistake it could very easily rectified. Picture the scene...

January 21st 2022

DOJ: 'There appear to be some classified documents missing. Did you take them away from the White House yesterday?'
Trump: 'Sorry. My mistake.'
DOJ: 'That's all right, Mr President, we'll send a van round. Sorted.'

It didn't happen like that. Instead there are lawyers buzzing round to protect Trump from the consequences in September.

If he thought he had a right to keep them then he wouldn't have cooperated. If he planned on selling the info, then once again all he had to do was make photocopies and then return the originals as asked. It would have been the "perfect crime" so to speak. But the idea of him holding onto origimal documents the DOJ was asking for, so he could sell them to the Russians and or Saudis in the future, doesn't make nearly as much sense.

 

[Whyayeman]

If he thought he had a right to keep them then he wouldn't have cooperated.

He clearly wants to keep them. Whatever his opinion, he is subject to the law, which is not a matter of opinion. It is sweet to try to see the best in anybody, but it is a struggle to see Trump as an innocent in this.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Like I and many others have pointed out from the beginning, he could have just made photocopies and then given the originals back if he was planning on selling the info. Nobody would know he had copies of everything, except maybe a lackey or two.

Funny, my government copier kept records of everything I copied, but perhaps the White House couldn't afford one like that.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Funny, my government copier kept records of everything I copied, but perhaps the White House couldn't afford one like that.

He could have photocopied the originals at MAL and then returned them before leaving office. Or the entire time he had them at MAL, after he left office, and then returned the originals. If I can come up with these simple solutions in 10 seconds time, then anyone (even Trump) could.

 

[Ceallaigh]

He clearly wants to keep them. Whatever his opinion, he is subject to the law, which is not a matter of opinion. It is sweet to try to see the best in anybody, but it is a struggle to see Trump as an innocent in this.

Keeping them only because "MINE!" isn't lawful. But it's a far cry from keeping them to sell to the Russians and or Saudis.

And it could turn out despite how they were tagged, that the info in the documents is so outdated, and relatively unimportant (like the President of France doc) they're not a threat to national security, and they're worthless to the Russians and Saudis etc.

 

[DaisyDay]

#68 is obviously contra factual

Nothing about it is counter-factual. You don’t know what Flynn lied about to the FBI for which he was convicted then pardoned? You don’t recall the Trump Tower meeting? Are you ignorant of Stone’s shenanigans with Wikileaks? Stay tuned for more on that last one.

 

[DaisyDay]

If he thought he had a right to keep them then he wouldn't have cooperated. If he planned on selling the info, then once again all he had to do was make photocopies and then return the originals as asked. It would have been the "perfect crime" so to speak. But the idea of him holding onto origimal documents the DOJ was asking for, so he could sell them to the Russians and or Saudis in the future, doesn't make nearly as much sense.

The better theory is that some of the documents were squirreled away to obstruct the investigations into him while others were hoarded because they might provide leverage and some were hoarded because he is excessively acquisitive.

He seemed to think he had the right to do whatever he pleased.

 

[RDKirk]

While he was president, was it forbidden for him to take classified documents with him when he was away from the White House?

I do not know.
Maybe @RDKirk might know?
I would guess that there’d have to be some sort of protocols that would allow the incumbent President to have the documents that he would need to do his job correctly, no matter where he was located in the world, so my best guess is “yes, the President is allowed to have these classified documents wherever he needs them to be.” but this isn’t carte blanche, I’m sure there’re “rules”.

Air Force One is a SCIF (Sensitive Compartmented Intelligence Facility), and it's possible to set up temporary SCIFs with a bit of advanced warning. Most (if not all) embassies and US military facilities around the world will have small SCIFs.

If he absolutely needs information while away from the plane, properly armed couriers will carry it for him.

That level of security is only needed for TOP SECRET (which includes SCI). Most of the time, information can be properly sanitized to a lower level by removing any references to "sensitive methods and sources."

SECRET and below requires significantly less security. SECRET can even be carried by certified US mail and FedEx. I sent large shipments of SECRET exposed SR-71 film by FedEx a couple of times when it "absolutely, positively had to be there overnight." One time in the early 80s I couriered a SECRET U-2 "cheesewheel" from Florida to Washington DC by commercial air. The cheesewheel was the container for the original unexposed negative produced by the primary camera, back in the film days. The container was an aluminum can six feet in diameter, a foot thick, weighing 500 pounds; I had to roll it around on a dolly. That was actually kind of dicey because at the time commercial aircraft were being hijacked from Florida to Cuba darned nearly every week.

 

[RDKirk]

He could have photocopied the originals at MAL and then returned them before leaving office. Or the entire time he had them at MAL, after he left office, and then returned the originals. If I can come up with these simple solutions in 10 seconds time, then anyone (even Trump) could.

Every copy machine in a government secure facility keeps records of what's copied. There had been a certified SCIF at Mar-a-Lago, and if it had a copy machine, that would have been one certified for that use...one that kept records. It also would have been recovered by the government when that SCIF was de-certified.

If any of those documents had been copied on an un-certified machine, there is no way for that not to have been a crime.

 

[RDKirk]

Keeping them only because "MINE!" isn't lawful. But it's a far cry from keeping them to sell to the Russians and or Saudis.

And it could turn out despite how they were tagged, that the info in the documents is so outdated, and relatively unimportant (like the President of France doc) they're not a threat to national security, and they're worthless to the Russians and Saudis etc.

He would probably not have had anything that was outdated. The schedule for TOP SECRET information starts at 20 years before it's even considered for declassification. It's unlikely he ever saw anything that old.

And even by schedule, nothing is automatically declassified. The schedule identified the dates that documents must be reviewed for possible declassification. Some things go 'way beyond 20 years before the information becomes harmless. That can happen when it involves human sources who are still living in harm's way.

 

[Ceallaigh]

He would probably not have had anything that was outdated. The schedule for TOP SECRET information starts at 20 years before it's even considered for declassification. It's unlikely he ever saw anything that old.

And even by schedule, nothing is automatically declassified. The schedule identified the dates that documents must be reviewed for possible declassification. Some things go 'way beyond 20 years before the information becomes harmless. That can happen when it involves human sources who are still living in harm's way.

I have a very strong feeling, based on past things billed bombshells that turned out to be duds, that if a general idea of the contents of those documents is disclosed, it will be underwhelming.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Every copy machine in a government secure facility keeps records of what's copied. There had been a certified SCIF at Mar-a-Lago, and if it had a copy machine, that would have been one certified for that use...one that kept records. It also would have been recovered by the government when that SCIF was de-certified.

If any of those documents had been copied on an un-certified machine, there is no way for that not to have been a crime.

But if he was planning on selling the info in those documents, or trading them in exchange for money he owed to the Russian mafia, I seriously doubt that would have kept him from using an ordinary photocopier.