Mat 5:17-18

[ace of hearts]

Perhaps I created a similar thread in the wrong section of the forum. So I want to try here. It would fit in a few other sub forums. I'm not interested in talking about law keeping nor salvation which this effects.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I'm interested in discussing all the key words and phrases of the above.

Of special interest to me are these words and their phrases -

1. destroy
2. fulfil
3. jots
4. tittles
5. fulfilled

Yes other passages apply to and are affected by Mat 5:17-18 and are welcome to the discussion. After we talk about the above passage we can talk about its effects on or for the Christian. Please talk about this passage with more than a token statement in your post.

Thanks

 

[ewq1938]

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

This was accomplished on the cross:

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

All that the Messiah came to fulfill during his Earthly life was finished when he died. That's why and how the law changed so drastically and hence why Christians do not keep the law of Moses nor it's rituals/ceremonies.

 

[ace of hearts]

This was accomplished on the cross:

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

All that the Messiah came to fulfill during his Earthly life was finished when he died. That's why and how the law changed so drastically and hence why Christians do not keep the law of Moses nor it's rituals/ceremonies.

Agreed that was the final item of fulfillment.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This was accomplished on the cross:

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

All that the Messiah came to fulfill during his Earthly life was finished when he died. That's why and how the law changed so drastically and hence why Christians do not keep the law of Moses nor it's rituals/ceremonies.

I don't recall "heaven and earth passing away" at the cross. That language is more fitting for when Christ comes the second time.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[ace of hearts]

I don't recall "heaven and earth passing away" at the cross. That language is more fitting for when Christ comes the second time.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Where does the passage say they will? I read they can't until all things are fulfilled.

I don't understand how you verse deals with Mat 5:17-18 because of LK 24:44.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't recall "heaven and earth passing away" at the cross.

Then how did the law change?

 

[_Dave_]

Ace, if we review what the purpose of the law was for mankind before Christ, then we can see why the law will not pass until all has been fulfilled (the end times, as someone else mentioned).

The purpose of the law was never to make people perfect by keeping it, because that is an impossible task. The purpose of the law in OT times was to act as a goad to people's conscience to convict them to faithfulness to God and, in our day, to Christ.

So, the "law" (not to be confused with the thousands of rules set by observant Jews) is still in effect for non-believers until the time of the end when everybody is either in Christ for eternity or are facing him for sentencing at the Great White Throne judgement.

 

[Rubiks]

To "fulfill" the law means Jesus obeyed it in its entirety. This interpretation is confirmed when we read verse 19 (NRSV): Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Does that mean Christians have to follow circumcision, sabbath, and Jewish dietary practices? Absolutely not, as we can see in Acts chapter 15, verses 28-29 (NRSV) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

As we see here, there were commands God gave specifically to the Jews and universal commands given to everyone.

 

[ace of hearts]

Then how did the law change?

I'm not sure what you're asking. In my words based on Jer 31:31-33 the law was by-passed or replaced by God thru Jesus (LK 22:20). What I think I know is there are two distinct covenants. One requiring actions of two parties and one requiring only the action of one party. Of course either must be accepted. The first one offered no choice - it was do (preform) or die. The second one only requires acceptance of a free gift.

What is certain is the law did change when the covenants changed. That doesn't mean the law never existed or doesn't exist these days. I guess one may choose which covenant they want. What I know is neither covenant is like the other. Paul says one can keep one or the other in Gal 5. The keeping of the previous covenant is rejection of Jesus as Savior according to Gal 5.

So if the issue is didn't change the law like Mat 5:17 indicates, how, or why did the law change. My answer is because of the nature of the previous covenant the fulfilling of it completes the contract and therefore finished. What do you do with a completed contract? What purpose or value is a completed contract? Covenant and contract are the same thing.

Yes I expect disagreement.

 

[ace of hearts]

Ace, if we review what the purpose of the law was for mankind before Christ, then we can see why the law will not pass until all has been fulfilled (the end times, as someone else mentioned).

I'll ask you to do the reviewing with Scripture. If I do it will only appear I as the OP am trying to force something. I don't want that. Besides that I want people to be able to make solid what they believe opposed to basing what is believed on what for better lack of words - unprovable opinion.

The purpose of the law was never to make people perfect by keeping it, because that is an impossible task. The purpose of the law in OT times was to act as a goad to people's conscience to convict them to faithfulness to God and, in our day, to Christ.

Indeed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Where does this leave the school master (the law)?

So, the "law" (not to be confused with the thousands of rules set by observant Jews) is still in effect for non-believers until the time of the end when everybody is either in Christ for eternity or are facing him for sentencing at the Great White Throne judgement.

To that I can agree.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Where does the passage say they will? I read they can't until all things are fulfilled.

I don't understand how you verse deals with Mat 5:17-18 because of LK 24:44.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The verse in Luke is the prophesies concerning Christs first advent.. the verse in Matt is dealing with events at His second advent.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Then how did the law change?

The content never changed ( I'm sure you keep at least 9 of the Commandments) but the way in which we view the Law through the lens of Christ's death and resurrection. The Law could never save, that is why Christ had to come to pay the price for us. What the Law does do, is point out sin to us that through Christ's Righteousness, we can overcome. We obey the Commandments in our own strength but because Jesus was obedient to them, Christ's Spirit in us accomplishes the same.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Does that mean Christians have to follow circumcision, sabbath, and Jewish dietary practices? Absolutely not, as we can see in Acts chapter 15, verses 28-29 (NRSV) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

As we see here, there were commands God gave specifically to the Jews and universal commands given to everyone.

Circumcision and the dietary laws, along with the other 613+ Mosaic laws were done away with at the cross when the Jewish system of temple worship, rituals and oblations ceased from being acceptable before God. The Sabbath however was a part of the Decalogue written on stone with God's own finger. They cannot be separated. If you do away with one, then you do away with them all.

 

[ewq1938]

What is certain is the law did change when the covenants changed.

Yes but that cannot happen, not one period or smallest thing of the law can change until all is fulfilled. So, the law did change which means all was fulfilled that was required to be fulfilled at the time.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He came to fulfill so certainly he will be successful at that.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So not the smallest part of the law can pass which means nothing can be changed until all was fulfilled and since the law changed drastically, most of it passing, we know that all was fulfilled on the cross that Christ came to fulfill.

Heaven and earth passing is a reference to heaven and earth age of time, or period of time. When Christ died, the old covenant age passed and a new age, the new covenant age began.

 

[ace of hearts]

The verse in Luke is the prophesies concerning Christs first advent.. the verse in Matt is dealing with events at His second advent.

I see. I guess that means Jesus didn't fulfil all the law concerning Him.

Luke says - "all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Can you show me what all things are? More specifically I'm interested in the word "all." What does it mean? I do believe it's limited to things affecting Jesus. Did Jesus mean only up to a point, or did He mean all or part? What do you base your response on?

 

[ace of hearts]

The content never changed ( I'm sure you keep at least 9 of the Commandments) but the way in which we view the Law through the lens of Christ's death and resurrection. The Law could never save, that is why Christ had to come to pay the price for us. What the Law does do, is point out sin to us that through Christ's Righteousness, we can overcome. We obey the Commandments in our own strength but because Jesus was obedient to them, Christ's Spirit in us accomplishes the same.

What is Jesus talking about in Mat 5:17-18? What does fulfil mean? By the text I'm sure it doesn't mean destroy.

You bring up other issues not found in Mat 5:17-18. I certainly agree what you bring up is affected by the fulfillment of the law by Jesus. I'd like to discuss that much later after we discuss the points of the OP. This was a major problem for my other thread.

So what law did Jesus fulfil? Jews talk about the law as a single indivisible unit. Did Jesus fulfil the famous 10?
Is Jesus talking about the covenant made with Israel? If so what is that covenant? I think of it as covenant law.

 

[ewq1938]

The content never changed

The content changed a lot between OT law and NT law. Moral laws didn't change but everything else did.

 

[ace of hearts]

Circumcision and the dietary laws, along with the other 613+ Mosaic laws were done away with at the cross when the Jewish system of temple worship, rituals and oblations ceased from being acceptable before God. The Sabbath however was a part of the Decalogue written on stone with God's own finger. They cannot be separated. If you do away with one, then you do away with them all.

OK, did those laws concern Jesus? Remember LK 24:44?

I have to admit I like your last statement a lot. Why would you make such a statement? Do you really want to promote that statement or do you want to regroup?

Remember Jesus didn't come to destroy (remove) any of the law per Mat 5:17.

 

[ace of hearts]

Yes but that cannot happen, not one period or smallest thing of the law can change until all is fulfilled. So, the law did change which means all was fulfilled that was required to be fulfilled at the time.

Ah, so jots and tittles of the did in fact change.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He came to fulfill so certainly he will be successful at that.

Agreed. Some are saying Jesus failed because not all prophecy is fulfilled. Interesting enough Jesus also talked about the destruction of Jerusalem. That indeed did happen. But it wasn't about Jesus. What I'm trying to say is Mat 5:17-18 isn't about all prophecy.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So not the smallest part of the law can pass which means nothing can be changed until all was fulfilled and since the law changed drastically, most of it passing, we know that all was fulfilled on the cross that Christ came to fulfill.

Agreed

Heaven and earth passing is a reference to heaven and earth age of time, or period of time. When Christ died, the old covenant age passed and a new age, the new covenant age began.

Interesting idea.

 

[ewq1938]

Ah, so jots and tittles of the did in fact change.Agreed. Some are saying Jesus failed because not all prophecy is fulfilled.

He didn't come to fulfill all prophecies, only the prophecies related to him and his 33 years on this Earth.

What I'm trying to say is Mat 5:17-18 isn't about all prophecy.AgreedInteresting idea.

Yep.