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Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Partaker of Christ, Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The princes of this world would be Satan and the demons because involved in the persecution of Christ, Satan entered Judas to betray Christ, in the effort to put to death the messiah - who Satan and his demons feared would usher in the kingdom of God to replace their dominion in the nations.

    Satan is called the prince of this world, John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

    Even though Jesus spoke to the disciples about his death and what it would result in, the gospel was sealed from "understanding", i.e kept a secret. In Luke 24:44-45 , Jesus as he opened the disciples' "understanding" of the things he told them about prior to his crucifixion.

    44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

    As far as the princes of this world also being the demons, in Pslams 22 is Christ on the cross...

    1<> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

    The bulls of Bashan are demons, which they would have possessed many of them present, like Satan entered Judas, to shout for Jesus's death.

    Bashan is a location near the Golan Heights where the Rephaim were supposed to have a stronghold there. When the Rephaim died they became the demons, unclean spirits.


    Doug
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  2. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That wouldn't be the proper application of the "Strong Bulls of Bashan". I don't know where you get that from, but it's sensationalizing the scriptures.

    "Strong Bulls of Bashan" is simply a term for the Roman army, that's why it says "Strong bulls of Bashan. They were the power, they a surrounded Christ when he was arrested, and escorted Him throughout His trial and crucifixion.

    So the Psalm speaks directly to the arrest and crucifixion of Christ as it was the Roman soldiers that gambled for Jesus garments.


    Also Doug...I'm reading through the bible again this year. However I'm doing it chronologically. Last night the reading was Job 12-14:22.

    As you know Job is one of the earliest books in the OT. As I read I came across an interesting passage as Job respond to his friends:
    Job 13:13-19
    13 &#8220;Be silent before me so that I may speak; Then let come on me what may.
    14 &#8220;Why should I take my flesh in my teeth And put my life in my hands?
    15 &#8220;Though He slay me, I will hope in Him. Nevertheless I will argue my ways before Him.
    16 &#8220;This also will be my salvation,For a godless man may not come before His presence.
    17 &#8220;Listen carefully to my speech, And let my declaration fill your ears.
    18 &#8220;Behold now, I have prepared my case; I know that I will be vindicated.
    19 &#8220;Who will contend with me? For then I would be silent and die.



    Interesting that Job knows he's saved, yet you would tell him he's not!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Deuteronomy 3:1 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
    2 And the Lord said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
    3 So the Lord our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.
    4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan.


    11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.


    The giants were the race of giants, the Rephaites (rephaim), which were like nephilim were the result of cross breeding of angels with earth women. Which when they died became the unclean spirits, looking for a body to possess.




    Doug
     
  4. Bro in Christ

    Bro in Christ Newbie

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    Agreed doug
     
  5. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That has nothing to do with it Doug. Please realize that the Psalms are Hebrew poetry and that's how you have to look at it. It's poetic license by David.

    The fact that it says these are "strong bulls of Bashan" should clue you in how to read this Psalm.

    As you flow through it you should allow the Psalm to give you the context.

    As you read the scripture (or study it), you research these things to apply them properly, Bashan is known for more than Og and their pagan ways. Despite being pagans the scripture testifies that Bashan had a knack for breeding strong cattle:

    Deuteronomy 34:14
    14 Curds of cows, and milk of the flock, With fat of lambs, And rams, the breed of Bashan, and goats, With the finest of the wheat&#8212;And of the blood of grapes you drank wine.

    Ezekiel 38:19:
    You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

    When you understand the way these people of that day understand their culture, you get it. Bashan was known for strong quality cattle.

    Just as poetic license is taken in saying "The Lord is my Shepherd", it is license in Psalm 22 to read it realizing "Many bulls have surrounded me, Strong bulls of Bashan..." applies to those who arrested and crucified Jesus. The scene being painted there, is that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  6. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re 'archons'
    Before getting scattered to wide, I'd need to know why you think 1 Cor 2 is talking about the transcendant beings instead of Pilate and Caiaphas. You referred to many of the other references but not that exact one.

    then there is the broad categories of Eph 6: one being flesh and blood, the other being 'archons' defeated by Christ reigning in the heavenlies. Last I checked, Pilate and Caiaphas were not defeated in the crucifixion.

    I don't think you answered about the declarations of Peter in Acts 3. The suffering of Messiah was known by the prophets for generations.

    --Inter
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If you go to those Jewish (Judaism) sites, you would find that Judaism (which was the religion in the land during those generations) regards the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 as what they call "righteous Israel". Go and join Messiah Truth.com discussion forum, and ask them who the suffering servant is.

    Doug
     
  8. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Duh!

    You go to the Word to see what the Word taught to those who sought God and found Him!
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If one was living back in the day of the disciples they would have been taught what their religious leaders taught them.

    Doug
     
  10. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    That is not true. It wasn't true then and it isn't true now. There has always been God's reserved remnant, who follow and obey Him, no matter their level of understanding of all His Plan, and in spite of the politics of religious leaders, so called; for then, as now, we know in part and see in part, and there have always been those who seek to understand, and find, and know that to have a personal relationship with the LORD trumps knowledge of men. The entire period of the prophets refutes what you said.

    The Essenes withdrew at the time of the partial return from the dispersion because the priesthood was polluted, politicized, sold for money. We have their "Bible" in the Qumran caves -the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    From the time of the [partial] return from the dispersion, there was no agreement and there was strife and political struggles for religious power over the people.

    You need to seek understanding of not only the Word of God and the Doctrine/Message of Christ from the beginning, but you need really to study history, for yourself.
     
  11. interpreter

    interpreter Senior Member

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    The great tribulation of WW II was cut short, after 3 1/2 years.
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re declarations about OT by Christ
    Doug, I think the dimension you are missing is that Christ had authority (through God's) to declare the meaning of the OT ("the prophets" in this discussion). You're right that Judaism would have said one thing, but are we to set much more upon that fact than it is an artefact of history for just some of Israel? I doubt very much Isaiah would have been clouded about all this with the virgin's son whose name would be called Emmanuel, the Mighty God, etc., all this apparently before ch 53 comes along (not to mention all the other curious prophecies in Isaiah.) Jeremiah would have known something very peculiar was coming with the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Daniel, with Messiah cut off but not for himself. Etc.

    The question you have to check into is what happens in the process of denial and spiritual resistance. For ex., I get no sense at all that Ezra or Nehemiah end with a very Christian direction in their spiritual 'renewal.' The dismissal of all foreign wives! Yet that sets precedent for the next centuries. You need to define what the veil is in 2 Cor 3-4. Who had it? why? What would allow a person to see through it?

    If there is no hope for people seeing through the veil in some limited ways before Christ comes, then there can be no Heb 11 "hall of faith." It is nonsense. And Peter is nonsense in Acts 3's declarations, by your standards.

    --Inter
     
  13. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    some of the things that you speak of, that are fulfilled in Christ,
    were something that the apostles already had, and we have today,
    yet the same apostles spoke in futuristic terms, not only about His future literal Coming,
    but many fulfillments being realized at that future Coming.

    you are arguing with folks that see both....
    we don't negate one for the other

    you seem to be doing just that tho,
    with your opposition to the very many future details given in the Word.
     
  14. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    David, the writer of most of the Psalms, actually fought a giant....so there's a connection there
     
  15. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re future:
    Here is what I see the apostles doing about their distant future:
    1, the vivid Judean details of Mt 24 & //s are current to their generation. Without this the immediate warnings of Christ in Mt chs 21-25 (parables, condemnations) are meaningless
    2, at 24:29 global, cosmic things were mentioned and intended to be 'immediately after' the above, with the allowance that only the Father would decide that. He decided not.
    3, the global, cosmic things do not have any Judean detail to them. The same things are found in 2 Pter 3, Heb 9, Rom 8, 1 Cor 15, and have no Judean detail. (A person may say that the last two are just about the individual's future anyway--fair enough). 2 thess 2 has many Judean details about it.
    4, there are intelligent treatments of Rev as written before 70 and in the same havoc of the 7th decade, and about those events. One of them is Barraco here at CF on the Trumpets, and it makes 'historic' sense. Published authors about the timing or dating of Rev include Gentry, Adams, Van Meter, Zens, Bray
    5, let me know if you think there is Judean-based detail on which the whole 2nd coming depends
    6, I can see the basic features of the 7th decade repeating in the future, but it would take a huge shift of today's cultural and physical proportions before any of it would make sense. And I don't know what the point would be. We are already dealing with something (the cataclysmic destruction of Jerusalem) that is itself a repeat of an event 6 centuries earlier. I don't know what the point of anything in modern Israel would be that has not already been made by the NT, apostles. From reading BW, I think God is some kind of liar if x, y, z don't happen in modern Israel. I don't get that at all from Paul who says 'every promise of God is "yes" and "amen" in Jesus Christ.'
    7, does it make any impact on you that this planet was nearly toast in the past year due to CMEs that were strong enough to do so, but burst out from the sun in the opposite direction harmless to us (2 Pet 3:12)?

    ...so I have an understanding of the future too.

    --Inter
     
  16. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    To Riverrat,
    was the incoherence about the kingdom? I don't see a response yet.

    --Inter
     
  17. riverrat

    riverrat Newbie

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    Interplanner: The incoherence began with the first word and ended with last word.

    Hope this answers your question.
     
  18. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    to Riverrat
    Here is the 1st line of #154:

    re Gentiles
    no the first disciples were Jews but had the question: how do the Gentiles come into the "Israel" that is being created new? The answer divides the church pretty sharply.


    Doug had asked whether the first disciples were Gentiles.

    If I had been incoherent, my answer would have been: people who swim in the Amazon turn green.

    I'm sure my answer is something you disagree to. But it is how Paul explains the mystery that is no longer a mystery (Eph 3, Col 1, Rom 16). When D'ism speaks of this they say the church was a mystery, ie, God had no idea it was coming and inserted it in history when Israel failed. That is not what Paul means. He means this is how the nations were going to share in Abraham's blessings, because that is the link between Abraham's blessings and Gen. 3--it has to bless all nations. It was hidden in the prophets all the time but they and Judaism thought it meant all these Gentiles had to learn Levitical regulations, dietary code, circumsiion, sabbath laws etc. "A burden neither we nor our fathers could bear." It does not. Now in Christ, the "law is fulfilled so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." It is by faith. To recieve righteousness is to be accepted by God, which is the promise fulfilled. To be justified by Christ.

    --Inter
     
  19. Interplanner

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    To Riverrat re: the promise fulfilled:
    ie, the apostles say nothing about the land of Israel when it comes to showing the promise to the fathers if fulfilled as in Acts 13's sermon. Unless "it served its purpose" like vs 36 about David's kingdom and not mentioned again.

    Interesting that 15:15 then explains David's fallen tent raised back up by the expansion of the Gospel to the nations.

    --Inter
     
  20. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    ok thx, but i'm not a dispensationalist, rather a pre mill, post tribber,
    so could you answer again with that in mind?
    leave out 1-2-6, as you obviously don't view all that as future.
     
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