Mary's "yes".

[Tigger45]

*This is posted in the Traditional Theology forum. 'All' responses must conform to Traditional Theology's SoP > Statement of Purpose .

I have completed watching a series of videos from an Eastern Orthodox parish titled as (Introduction to Orthodoxy).

The last video in the series is what I'd consider the fundamental difference/s between Western and Eastern Christianity. Now if you don't have time to listen to the whole 37 minute video skip ahead to minute 28 which specifically addresses what I'd like to examine and discuss here in this thread and that is Mary's particular (special if you will) ability to say "yes" to God's will over the Western church's understanding of the 'Bondage of the will' as a result of a human's fallen nature.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you, quite good. And far and away, with little qualification or reservation, it can be said that the difference presented here is not the difference between east and west but the difference between Protestantism and the church in both the east and west that preceded that movement.

 

[hedrick]

Thank you, quite good. And far and away, with little qualification or reservation, it can be said that the difference presented here is not the difference between east and west but the difference between Protestantism and the church in both the east and west that preceded that movement.

The Catholic approach to the will is complex, since it includes Augustine but also people who have a higher evaluation of human freedom. But it seems to me that the Immaculate Conception sort of contradicts the video. It seems to suggest that Mary actually was a miraculously created exception.

 

[fhansen]

The Catholic approach to the will is complex, since it includes Augustine but also people who have a higher evaluation of human freedom. But it seems to me that the Immaculate Conception sort of contradicts the video. It seems to suggest that Mary actually was a miraculously created exception.

Even Augustine can vary much on that theme. As he was battling Pelagianism his focus was on grace vs legalism, as was Paul's when we get down to it. But either of those two in other contexts can be seen as supporting free will. With Mary there are some questions on that matter but the basic idea is that while preserved from being born into the state of original sin she was still as free as Adam originally was to sin, or say "no" to God. But her humble "yes" is why she serves as a model and heroine for us all.

 

[hedrick]

Even Augustine can vary much on that theme. As he was battling Pelagianism his focus was on grace vs legalism, as was Paul's when we get down to it. But either of those two in other contexts can be seen as supporting free will. With Mary there are some questions on that matter but the basic idea is that while preserved from being born into the state of original sin she was still as free as Adam originally was to sin, or say "no" to God. But her humble "yes" is why she serves as a model and heroine for us all.

But doesn’t her ability to do that depend to some extent on bein free from original sin? The video sees it as holiness built up over time among her ancestors. Those don’t seem to be the same.

 

[fhansen]

But doesn’t her ability to do that depend to some extent on bein free from original sin? The video sees it as holiness built up over time among her ancestors. Those don’t seem to be the same.

To be honest I had to revisit the video to see what you were referring to. I was quite impressed by the speaker’s teaching on union/partnership with God with a grand overall plan or telos for man, of the central role of love in our faith, and then with the honor paid to Mary and of God’s role for her. These understandings are shared with Catholicism. But admittedly I wasn’t so focused on the speaker’s words when he gave his historical background to Mary’s “yes” -and I agree that, while interesting and containing seeds of truth, and while it’s important IMO to emphasize the importance of her will in her choice, his teaching seems to possibly undermine the role of grace.

But I do know that grace is considered to be indispensable to Mary’s “yes” in Eastern orthodoxy, and I don’t know if his explanation is a universal or common one in the east. Likewise both east and west teach that any grace that Mary has, including for her very redemption, is due to the merits of her Son. In Catholicism Mary’s freedom from sin, whether at conception or later in life, is due to grace. But the immaculate conception, by itself, wouldn’t guarantee permanent freedom from sin while her continuous cooperation, remaining in union with God and being uniquely blest for His purposes for the good of the rest of us, could do so.

 

[hedrick]

Even Augustine can vary much on that theme. As he was battling Pelagianism his focus was on grace vs legalism, as was Paul's when we get down to it. But either of those two in other contexts can be seen as supporting free will. With Mary there are some questions on that matter but the basic idea is that while preserved from being born into the state of original sin she was still as free as Adam originally was to sin, or say "no" to God. But her humble "yes" is why she serves as a model and heroine for us all.

Mary as the new Adam?

 

[fhansen]

Mary as the new Adam?

All of us in a sense, as redeemed by her Son, the first new Adam. Being born again is said to remit original sin, returning man to the state of innocence and “original justice” he had before the fall, reconciled and in union with God. But this obviously doesn’t mean that we’ll necessarily continue to walk in that justice or righteousness; we’ll still struggle against sin, we can still fall again; we show where are hearts really are-what we really believe in, hope in, and love-by the way we live our lives.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Catholic approach to the will is complex, since it includes Augustine but also people who have a higher evaluation of human freedom. But it seems to me that the Immaculate Conception sort of contradicts the video. It seems to suggest that Mary actually was a miraculously created exception.

Just to be clear, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox emphatically reject the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which is only needed in the Roman church due to a hyper-reliance on Augustinian hamartiology, in which original sin is transmitted through sexual reproduction. The eastern churches instead rely on the more nuanced model of St. John Cassian, which more than adequately refutes Pelagius without turning original sin into something like an existential STD.