Mary's Infidelity

[WebersHome]

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● Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly.

FAQ: Why didn't Joseph proceed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping around?

A: The covenant law that Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old Testament requires the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses for the prosecution in capital cases.

● Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Sans witnesses even Joseph himself became a suspect; in point of fact, the prime suspect.

» Compare the woman allegedly taken in adultery (John 8:1-11). Jesus let the woman go because there was no one willing to testify against her. And even had he known by omniscience that the woman was guilty, the Lord couldn't testify against her because he wasn't a legitimate witness; besides, he would've been the only one.
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[tampasteve]

"putting away" or "putting to shame" are not necessarily the same as stoning. It would not have been a capital case, as there were no witnesses, but Joseph could easily have put her to shame by denying being the father, which his word would have been taken against hers. His Righteousness was in not putting her to shame and making her destitute. It would have been upon Mary to prove her innocence, not upon Joseph. Being as she was pregnant it would be impossible to prove she was innocent, virginity in tact or not.

 

[Mr. M]

Sans witnesses even Joseph himself became a suspect; in point of fact, the prime suspect.

Deuteronomy 22:
23 If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her,
24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
25 But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.
26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter.
27 For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.
28 If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out,
29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

If Joseph was responsible, could he have "made an honest woman of her", by simply marrying her?
Also, I wonder if the witnesses are required, when the baby provides the testimony. In John 8,
the accusation was adultery. Very interesting analysis all the same.

 

[-57]

You stopped at verse 19...should have read verse 20... there is the answer to the question

20But after he had pondered these things, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to embrace Mary as your wife, for the One conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a Son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus, because He will save His people from their sins.”

 

[Halbhh]

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● Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly.

FAQ: Why didn't Joseph proceed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping around?

A: The covenant law that Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old Testament requires the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses for the prosecution in capital cases.

● Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Sans witnesses even Joseph himself became a suspect; in point of fact, the prime suspect.

» Compare the woman allegedly taken in adultery (John 8:1-11). Jesus let the woman go because there was no one willing to testify against her. And even had he known by omniscience that the woman was guilty, the Lord couldn't testify against her because he wasn't a legitimate witness.
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Not being distracted by the speculation about Mary, there is a much more substantive question you are raising about sin and penalty.

The penalty of sin is death, and all are guilty. Not only someone caught in adultery.
(she was caught, but that's not even the real key thing: John 8:3 The scribes and Pharisees, however, brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before them)

Not only her, but all of us are guilty of serious sins, even commonplace everyday ones that like gossiping at someone's expense (false witness) or lusting after someone not one's spouse for 30 seconds (adultery), or on a day holding anything, or some activity, or political figure, or ideology, more important in your heart (your interior thoughts and priorities) than God (thus idolatry).

See, all are guilty, at some point, of deadly sins. And the eventual penalty for all is death. Christ came to change us, and make a new way for us to be redeemed from our wrongs.

Christ came to create a new covenant, where through Him, with faith in Him, we are to "go and sin no more", and to confess when we do, so that we can be cleansed (1rst John chapters 1-2).

 

[Tolworth John]

Jesus let the woman go because there was no one willing to testify against her. And even had he known by omniscience that the woman was guilty, the Lord couldn't testify against her because he wasn't a legitimate witne

Faulty reasoning, the OT law is that both should be stoned, where was the man caught in adultery, or was no man involved.
The case stinks of injustice and in Jesus's responce you see he knows it.

Jesus as judge of the whole earth could have judged the woman, instead he made a much bigger point.

 

[renniks]

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● Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly.

FAQ: Why didn't Joseph proceed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping around?

A: The covenant law that Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old Testament requires the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses for the prosecution in capital cases.

● Deut 17:6-7 . . At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Sans witnesses even Joseph himself became a suspect; in point of fact, the prime suspect.

» Compare the woman allegedly taken in adultery (John 8:1-11). Jesus let the woman go because there was no one willing to testify against her. And even had he known by omniscience that the woman was guilty, the Lord couldn't testify against her because he wasn't a legitimate witness.
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Because he was a just man, and thought to put the matter to rest privately, but then a little visit from an angel changed his plans.

 

[Mr. M]

"putting away" or "putting to shame" are not necessarily the same as stoning. It would not have been a capital case, as there were no witnesses, but Joseph could easily have put her to shame by denying being the father, which his word would have been taken against hers. His Righteousness was in not putting her to shame and making her destitute. It would have been upon Mary to prove her innocence, not upon Joseph. Being as she was pregnant it would be impossible to prove she was innocent, virginity in tact or not.

The other element of the narrative is that Mary spent time away from her village with Elizabeth. Suspicions would have been cast in that direction.
Luke 1:39, 40. Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.

"Putting her away discreetly" could possibly involve her leaving again, placing the incident in another venue. Joseph in that case would be avoiding any public spectacle himself.
The highlight of the story, of course, is the sovereignty of God. All the legal complications in the world could not impose itself on His Will. Halleluyah!

 

[com7fy8]

Well, I suppose she and Joseph had conversations.

And she might have gone to visit with Elizabeth, since Elizabeth was older, maybe a mature mentor. And she could talk with Elizabeth about . . . things.

But . . . lo and behold . . . here is Mary with Elizabeth maybe telling Elizabeth, oh I have a situation . . . I am pregnant and Joseph and I haven't done anything, yet. But Elizabeth is pregnant, too!! That might have been a very interesting situation for Mary.

But she was with someone who knew God can cause a miraculous pregnancy. So, even though Elizabeth's husband was included, in her case, Mary had someone who could relate to her. Plus, John was leaping for joy in Elizabeth's womb, and so announcing who Jesus was, in Mary. So, all that could have helped Mary to realize how the LORD was taking care of things.

But she needed to be able to see that. We can have all God's proof in our faces and still we don't get it.

So, while humans were fooling themselves, however, God was succeeding in all He is committed to doing. Amen He is never held back from whatever He is doing and going to give birth to. No matter, then, how things look to us >

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:6-7)

 

[BobRyan]

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● Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly.

FAQ: Why didn't Joseph proceed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping around?

well there was "that angel" with a big flaming sword, thing..

" 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit."

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I suppose she and Joseph had conversations.

And she might have gone to visit with Elizabeth, since Elizabeth was older, maybe a mature mentor. And she could talk with Elizabeth about . . . things.

She went to visit with Elizabeth without saying a word about being pregnant to Joseph.

When she came back from visiting relatives out of town - presto! Joseph finds out she is pregnant.

Joseph is not at all amused.

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Luke 1

26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” 29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.” 34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God.” 38 And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Mary Visits Elizabeth
39 Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.


56 And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.


So Marry comes home - about 3 months pregnant.

 

[thecolorsblend]

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[Strong in Him]

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● Matt 1:18-19 . . Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not wanting to disgrace her, desired to put her away secretly.

FAQ: Why didn't Joseph proceed to have his betrothed stoned for sleeping around?

A: The covenant law that Moses' people agreed upon with God in the Old Testament requires the testimony of a minimum of two witnesses for the prosecution in capital cases.

No.
A: Because an angel told him that Mary's baby was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Halbhh]

Why do people morally equivocate on sins? Apart from the absolutely lousy exegesis demonstrated above, the above broadens that which was originally specific. Rather than talk specifically about Our Lady being put away or not for adultery, the post talks generally about all sins committed by all people, however small they might be in comparison to the topic at hand.

Your post is borderline off-topic, imo.

When you get past the provocation in the OP title by suggesting Mary might be guilty (even if just for a moment), then with a cooler look, you can see that the key topic isn't the surface, putative question, but the real issue raised by the OP is whether individuals, any, ought to be punished for their sins. Mary is 100% innocent. It's a distraction to even discuss that much, as a less certain issue, a real question, is being raised in the OP, not at all about Mary.

When the OP brought in the useful beginning of John chapter 8, then the topic, generally, involves exactly what the OP raises the question of whether we should judge and punish (us, here, now) people for sins.

Is there someone here on Earth that would judge Mary?

They should beware!

Of course we all know, 99.9% of us, that Mary was innocent, and that's only a distraction or red herring, from the real issue here, which is making self-deadly condemnations and judgments against others. (See beginning of Matthew chapter 7 -- anything we judge others on makes us subject to that same standard, including the same harshness or accusatory quality. )

But Christ came to save us from all of this stuff (and among many things, teach us not to play God and judge others). It's exactly that key between the lines issue in the OP that He came to resolve and change for us.

 

[thecolorsblend]

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[WebersHome]

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Matt 1:19 says that Joseph was a righteous man; which is defined by Luke 1:6 as observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

The word "all" suggests to me that Joseph wasn't compliant with just some of the Lord's wishes, nor even most, rather, the whole ball of wax. That's an amazing track record.
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[Halbhh]

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Matt 1:19 says that Joseph was a righteous man; which is defined by Luke 1:6 as observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

The word "all" suggests to me that Joseph wasn't compliant with just some of the Lord's wishes, nor even most, rather, the whole ball of wax. That's an amazing track record.
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The old covenant way: the commandments and regulations included the prescribed and required regular way to propitiate for the wrongs that did happen through prescribed sacrifices. To fear God, to generally remember and keep the law, and to offer sincere (repentant) sacrifices for the slips and wrongs they did do, the person was made blameless. But many would not do this well at all, and God would reject their sacrifices (see for instance Isaiah chapter 1).

 

[WebersHome]

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But many would not do this well at all.

The Bible says that Joseph did well complying with the Lord's commandments and regulations; in point of fact very well: Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth too.
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[Halbhh]

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The Bible says that Joseph did well complying with the Lord's commandments and regulations; in point of fact very well: Zacharias and his wife Elizabeth too.
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, we all rejoice at (and/or long for) the righteous

 

[WebersHome]

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Curiously, the Bible doesn't say one way or the other whether Mary was righteous, i.e. compliant with the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly. But it's possible we might at least suggest that she was.

For example:

● Luke 1:30 . . Mary, you have found favor with God.

The Greek word translated "favor" is also translated grace in quite a few places. So we could translate Luke 1:30 like this:

"you have found grace with God."

This isn't the first time that someone found grace with God. Noah did too.

● Gen 6:8 . . Noah found grace in the eyes of The Lord.

Noah and Joseph had something in common.

● Gen 6:9 . . Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time,

I might be taking liberties here; but if Noah found grace with God, and if Noah was righteous and blameless among the people of his time, then I think maybe it's safe to suggest that seeing as how Mary found grace with God, then she too was righteous and blameless among the people of her and Joseph's time.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph are often referred to as "The Holy Family". Well; I for one sincerely believe that label is called for, viz: it's no exaggeration: not just because of their son Jesus, but primarily because his parents were pretty amazing people.
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