Mary wasn't "Immaculately Conceived"

dóxatotheó

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We Orthodox believe that the Panagia was conceived and born in a state of sin since she is a human being just like the rest of us. Only Christ was free of sin. We do venerate the Panagia highly though. She is the holiest of all the Saints and is like a member of our families. We do believe that the Panagia committed no actual personal sins. We believe that both through God’s grace and her free cooperation with God’s grace – both go together- she committed no sin. We believe she overcame every temptation to sin and thus remained ever pure, even in her mind and soul. There is a synergy, a cooperation, going on between God and the Panagia. She exercises her free will to respond to God.
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The teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the “One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ” (1 Tim. 2:5); “and in Him is no sin” (1 John 3:5); “Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth.” (1 Peter 2:22); “One that hath been in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Heb. 4:15); “Him who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf” (II Cor. 5:21). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us…If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life” (Rom. 5:8-10).

(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. “There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thou alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and remission of sins.” (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost.) “But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh” (St. Gregory the Theologian, “In Praise of Virginity”). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care of Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160).

(3) The teaching that the Mother of God was purified before Her birth, so that from Her might be born the Pure Christ, is meaningless; because if the Pure Christ could be born only if the Virgin might be born pure, it would be necessary that Her parents also should be pure of original sin, and they again would have to be born of purified parents, and going further in this way, one would have to come to the conclusion that Christ could not have become incarnate unless all His ancestors in the flesh, right up to Adam inclusive, had been purified beforehand of original sin. But then there would not have been any need for the very Incarnation of Christ, since Christ came down to earth in order to annihilate sin.
An Orthodox Christian Understanding of the Immaculate Conception. St. John Maximovitch
Also, It lacks logic that a Woman born from a man and woman would be sinless.
Church Father Quotes:
And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, Who is My mother, and who are My brethren? Matthew 12:48, because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him…And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, Woman, what have I to do with you? instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much more for the salvation of her soul, and for the doing good to the many, for which He took upon Him the flesh (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 21).

They have no wine. For she desired both to do them a favor, and through her Son to render herself more conspicuous; perhaps too she had some human feelings, like His brethren, when they said, Show yourself to the world John 17:4, desiring to gain credit from His miracles. Therefore He answered somewhat vehemently” (John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 21).

…St Hilary in his Annotations on the 20th verse of the cxixth [119th] Psalm, “My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments,” applies it unto the future judgment and among other observations has this passage, “Seeing we must render an account for every idle word do we desire the day of judgment in which that unwearied fire is to be passed through in which those grievous punishments are to be undergone for the expiating of a soul from sin [1 Cor 3:12], a sword shall pass through the soul of the blessed Virgin Mary that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed [Luke 2:35]. If that Virgin who bore God is to come into the severity of the judgment will any one dare desire to be judged by God?”(Excerpt of Hilary of Poitiers Homily on Psalm 119).
Although they [Christ’s family] had like the rest power to come in, yet they abstain from all approach to Him, “for he came unto his own, and his own received him not” (Hilary of Poitiers commenting of Matt 12:50).
why this is signified that Mary also, through whom was performed the mystery of the incarnation, looked with doubt and astonishment at the death of her Lord (Saint Augustine, Catena on Luke).
 
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TheWhat?

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I'm not the best to debate this topic, but, iirc, it arises out of necessity from Original Sin.

My understanding was roughly that Augustine's view concerning procreation involves the joining of two souls together to produce offspring. This includes any imperfections present in the souls, thus, Christ could not have been sinless unless Mary was sinless.

Am interested to see how Eastern Orthodoxy might take this apart.
 
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dóxatotheó

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My understanding was roughly that Augustine's view concerning procreation involves the joining of two souls together to produce offspring. This includes any imperfections present in the souls, thus, Christ could not have been sinless unless Mary was sinless.
Firstly, Orthodoxy all agreed Augustine was wrong in his theology on the nature of sin. Secondly, the early church did not believe Mary had to be sinless for Christ to be born a sinless man. Irenæus, for example, wrote that in order to save sinful flesh—in order to sum up
“human nature in His own person”—He had to take his flesh from “the thing which had perished,” and he took that flesh from Mary:
“But if the Lord became incarnate for any other order of things, and took flesh of any other substance, He has not then summed up human nature in His own person, nor in that case can He be termed flesh. For flesh has been truly made [to consist in] a transmission of that thing moulded originally from the dust. … But the thing which had perished possessed flesh and blood. For the Lord, taking dust from the earth, moulded man; and it was upon his behalf that all the dispensation of the Lord’s advent took place. He had Himself, therefore, flesh and blood, recapitulating in Himself not a certain other, but that original handiwork of the Father, seeking out that thing which had perished. And for this cause the apostle, in the Epistle to the Colossians, says, ‘And though you were formerly alienated, and enemies to His knowledge by evil works, yet now you have been reconciled in the body of His flesh, through His death, to present yourselves holy and chaste, and without fault in His sight.’ [Colossians 1:21, etc.] He says, ‘You have been reconciled in the body of His flesh,’ because the righteous flesh has reconciled that flesh which was being kept under bondage in sin, and brought it into friendship with God.” (Irenæus, Against Heresies, Book IV, chapter 14).
Needless to say, if Jesus of necessity took His flesh from “that which had perished … under bondage in sin,” then He clearly did not take His flesh from “that which had not perished” and was not “kept under bondage in sin,” which of course means that Mary was not exceptional in regard to sin in Irenæus’ view, and he did not think Mary had to be sinless for Christ to become incarnate.
Notably, Hilary of Poitiers (c. 310 – c. 367 A.D.) also considered Mary to be sinful and “destined to undergo the scrutiny of God’s judgment, of faults that are slight” (see Hilary of Portiers, Tractatus in Ps 118; Patrologia Latina Volume 9, c. 523). Because of this, Hilary believed that Jesus was “unique” in the sense that He “did not come into existence through the passions incident to human conception” and was “not born under the defects of human conception.” Such statements of necessity contrast Jesus’ conception with Mary’s, for Mary was certainly conceived “through the passions incident to human conception”:
“For Christ had indeed a body, but unique, as befitted His origin. He did not come into existence through the passions incident to human conception: He came into the form of our body by an act of His own power. He bore our collective humanity in the form of a servant, but He was free from the sins and imperfections of the human body: that we might be in Him, because He was born of the Virgin, and yet our faults might not be in Him, because He is the source of His own humanity, born as man but not born under the defects of human conception. … though He was formed in fashion as a man, He knew not what sin was. For His conception was in the likeness of our nature, not in the possession of our faults.” (Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, Book X, chapter 25).
Was Saint Mary, Mother of God, sinless?
 
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dóxatotheó

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Firstly, Orthodoxy all agreed Augustine was wrong in his theology on the nature of sin. Secondly, the early church did not believe Mary had to be sinless for Christ to be born a sinless man. Irenæus, for example, wrote that in order to save sinful flesh—in order to sum up
“human nature in His own person”—He had to take his flesh from “the thing which had perished,” and he took that flesh from Mary:

Needless to say, if Jesus of necessity took His flesh from “that which had perished … under bondage in sin,” then He clearly did not take His flesh from “that which had not perished” and was not “kept under bondage in sin,” which of course means that Mary was not exceptional in regard to sin in Irenæus’ view, and he did not think Mary had to be sinless for Christ to become incarnate.
Notably, Hilary of Poitiers (c. 310 – c. 367 A.D.) also considered Mary to be sinful and “destined to undergo the scrutiny of God’s judgment, of faults that are slight” (see Hilary of Portiers, Tractatus in Ps 118; Patrologia Latina Volume 9, c. 523). Because of this, Hilary believed that Jesus was “unique” in the sense that He “did not come into existence through the passions incident to human conception” and was “not born under the defects of human conception.” Such statements of necessity contrast Jesus’ conception with Mary’s, for Mary was certainly conceived “through the passions incident to human conception”:
@ArmyMatt discussion on Mary is always great
 
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Petros2015

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Heh. Pass the popcorn.

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pdudgeon

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Agreed. With God, all things are possible.
And just as it was possible for God to create a perfect Adam and a perfect Eve, it would have been unthinkable for Him to create a "less than perfect" Mother for His perfect Son.

All life and creation comes from God.
Without God, nothing that is good can exist.
Therefore, Mary, in her creation, had to be perfect in order to provide the perfect vessel in which to house and shelter the infant Jesus, The Son of God Most High, who Himself is perfect.
Mary was to be the perfected and "improved" version of Eve, who fell victim to sin.
And just as the Ark of the Covenant (Old Testament) was sacred, and held the sacred Word of God, so too would Mary be created pure and sacred, that she in turn might be deemed fit to hold within her the Son of God, Most Holy.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Agreed. With God, all things are possible.
And just as it was possible for God to create a perfect Adam and a perfect Eve, it would have been unthinkable for Him to create a "less than perfect" Mother for His perfect Son.
So you saying Mary must be sinless because God was made sinless?
All life and creation comes from God.
Without God, nothing that is good can exist.
I agree..
Therefore, Mary, in her creation, had to be perfect in order to provide the perfect vessel in which to house and shelter the infant Jesus
I just explained how thats not the case... Also, Mary did never sin in her life she was the only woman who followed God her whole life but she for sure wasn't free of original sin. The early church believe Jesus was born sinless because hes God not because of Mary.
just as the Ark of the Covenant (Old Testament) was sacred, and held the sacred Word of God, so too would Mary be created pure and sacred, that she in turn might be deemed fit to hold within her the Son of God, Most Holy.
Also we believe she is Immaculate, and Most holy. We even believe she was the Ark Just that she wasn't sinless.
 
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prodromos

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Everyone is born without sin, so it is incorrect to state that Mary was born with sin.
Mary and John the Forerunner are considered by the Church to be the pinnacle of creation, both being born of a long line of righteous ancestors. Both are considered blameless.
 
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pdudgeon

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the issue with the Immaculate Conception isn’t Mary’s sinlessness, but why would God apply the merits of the cross to her, and remove the stain of original guilt from her alone? that makes no sense.
Because Mary was intended to be the New Eve, the first of the New Creation, and to not carry forward the stain of original sin in her person.
Mary was unique.
She was created by God as perfect, without the inheritance of sin in her nature, and in her life was kept from sin by her perfect obedience to God.
But even in that perfection, she was still human. She showed that by her willingness to become the Mother of Christ: to forgo any other man including her intended husband, Joseph, to whom she was bound by a pledge.
And in her willingness to remain open only to God, God in turn honored her by the means of Jesus' birth without the pain or travail associated with labor that all women undergo when we give birth. That pain and travail is a reminder of our imperfect, sinful nature.
Mary, however, was created by God for one purpose: to become the new Eve: the perfect receptical to hold within her body and her heart, the Son of the Living God.
 
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pdudgeon

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The pain and travail that Mary suffered came with the crucification of her Son.
Her heart was pierced with the pain that He suffered on the cross, as it was promised.
And by enduring that pain with Him, she also paid the price required of her as a human being.
 
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Valletta

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the issue with the Immaculate Conception isn’t Mary’s sinlessness, but why would God apply the merits of the cross to her, and remove the stain of original guilt from her alone? that makes no sense.

Both Eve and Mary were brought into this world without sin. Eve sinned and Mary did not.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Because Mary was intended to be the New Eve, the first of the New Creation, and to not carry forward the stain of original sin in her person.
Mary was unique.
She was created by God as perfect, without the inheritance of sin in her nature, and in her life was kept from sin by her perfect obedience to God.
But even in that perfection, she was still human. She showed that by her willingness to become the Mother of Christ: to forgo any other man including her intended husband, Joseph, to whom she was bound by a pledge.
And in her willingness to remain open only to God, God in turn honored her by the means of Jesus' birth without the pain or travail associated with labor that all women undergo when we give birth. That pain and travail is a reminder of our imperfect, sinful nature.
Mary, however, was created by God for one purpose: to become the new Eve: the perfect receptical to hold within her body and her heart, the Son of the Living God.

but if He could do that to her, why not all of us?
 
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pdudgeon

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Of course it makes sense. You forgot that God is all seeing and all knowing.
And while we cannot see from day to day or minute to minute, God, the Creator of Time, is always outside of it.
But He allowed His Son, Jesus, to experience Time, and all that it contained, that He would understand man, love him, and become the perfect, willing sacrifice for us who up until that point, were without the means to offer our own sacrifice that would wipe out all sin (save one).
 
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ArmyMatt

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Of course it makes sense. You forgot that God is all seeing and all knowing.
And while we cannot see from day to day or minute to minute, God, the Creator of Time, is always outside of it.
But He allowed His Son, Jesus, to experience Time, and all that it contained, that He would understand man, love him, and become the perfect, willing sacrifice for us who up until that point, were without the means to offer our own sacrifice that would wipe out all sin (save one).

that has nothing to do with the Immaculate Conception. I believe everything you said and reject the IC.
 
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