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Mary, there's something about her...

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Theresa, Nov 29, 2002.

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  1. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Oh, it's not so impossible. Pope Innocent would only have to kill around 27,093 people a second to make this number in his 18-year tenure.

    I, too, suspect that the person meant something else -- I can't imagine he was actually suggesting that 100,000,000,000 to 500,000,000,000 people were killed by one pope.

    But Jack Chick and other anti-Catholics often claim ridiculous numbers in all honesty like 45 million. This is absolutely ridiculous -- they're proposing that the Catholic church was able to wipe out 2-4 times as many people as the Black Plague killed. That's also way too many trials to be reasonable, although I suppose Chick would just claim that no trials were done or something like that.

    -Chris
     
  2. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,463
    Seeker
    Married
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    The numbers are often fairly arbitrary; in a lot of cases, we're guessing about how many people were in a given place at a given time, anyway... Tricky stuff.

    Still, on the whole, I'm willing to let the whole thing go as "sometimes people do bad things". It surprises me that any Christian familiar with our basic theology would try to turn this into an argument against a specific belief system; people with good beliefs do bad things too.
     
  3. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Well, remember that to a lot of these anti-Catholics, the Inquisition is just one event in a long line of malificient acts by the Church against "true Christians".

    If you read Jack Chick and the like, they believe that the Catholic church has been a false church since its inception, and there has always been a hidden group of "true Christians" who were running for their lives from the Catholics until Martin Luther came along. All of this is pure nonsense, of course, but believing it sure does strengthen the idea that the Catholic church is bad.

    Here are some quotes directly from Chick himself:
    "The Roman Catholic church has had only one aim from its earliest, pagan and political origins: To destroy the true Christians, and to destroy their Bible. "

    And from the FAQ on Roman Catholicism on his site:
    "Q: Didn't Christianity consist of the Catholic Church for the first 1500 years?

    A: No. While the Catholic Church was seeking to control the world through religion, true Christians were running for their lives from the Catholic holocaust that ran for centuries.

    God has always had His people, faithful to Him and His Word. They had no part in the Roman Catholic Church. Through much of history, organized religion has hunted and slaughtered God's people. For an excellent overview of this, read the classic work, "The Trail of Blood," at one of these websites: <websites omitted>"

    With people like this around, there will never be peace between the Catholics and Protestants.

    -Chris
     
  4. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,463
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    There may well be peace between some Catholics and some Protestants. I guess some people may choose to remove themselves from this peace; a common theme in Christian theology. Peace is always around, but you aren't forced to partake.
     
  5. Theresa

    Theresa With Reason

    +186
    Catholic
    Anyways, back to Mary. I know there's a verse in the OT that prophecised this next thought.

    Mary is the favored daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son and spouse of the Holy Spirit.

    I heard one time that Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit and I thought it was crazy until I thought about it. I conceived children by my husband. Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit.

    Anyways, does anybody know that verse????

    Thanx, Luv
    Theresa
     
  6. Extirpated Wildlife

    Extirpated Wildlife Wanted: Room to Roam

    +34
    Protestant
    :sigh:
     
  7. Hector Medina

    Hector Medina Questioning Roman Catholic

    845
    +6
    Catholic
    Single
    US-Republican
    Interesting........

    What do the Anglicans think about Mary???


    Sinc.

    Hector
     
  8. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    To my knowledge that verse doesn't exist.&nbsp; I heard someone else mention that and honestly I think that's extremely dangerous to say.&nbsp; Just because&nbsp;the Holy Spirit&nbsp;brought about Jesus's birth through Mary, doesn't mean she is the Holy Spirit's spouse.

    &nbsp;

    I'm not pointing fingers but Jesus once said, "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" (Matt 10:37)

    I don't think Mary should be placed so highly.&nbsp; Now I'm not 'anti-Mary', but honestly I don't know if I can ever accept Mary as the spouce of the Holy Spirit as if the two are intimate lovers.&nbsp; It almost seems as if the bible is about God and Mary, while the bible is about God and his people (specifically us).

    God bless!

    -Jason

    &nbsp;
     
  9. Theresa

    Theresa With Reason

    +186
    Catholic
    I understand what you're saying, but think about it deeper. Think about this as well. The Church is the bride of Christ, and Christ is the Bridegroom (John 3:28-30 - "The bridegroom is the one to whom the bride belongs; but the bridegroom's friend....." [there are many more verses that show this]) so therefore, does Christ have one Bride (one church) or many brides (or churches)?

    There's so much imagry and typology to help us to understand better. The holy spirit "overshadowed" Mary. The Holy Spirit "overshadowed" the Ark, which was the shekna, or glory cloud. I put the question out there to get some answers and opinions I never said it was doctrine or anything, I don't know if it is. It's just one of the things I would like to discuss.

    What does this mean? Jeremiah 31:22: A woman shall encompass a man???

    Thanx, Luv
    Theresa
     
  10. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi Theresa,

    I see what you're saying, but I don't know if I can fully agree with it.&nbsp; If Mary is the 'New Eve' is that to say that she's married to the 'New Adam' in terms of physical union like Adam and Eve?&nbsp; I don't think we can keep 'stretching' typology to fit it with Mary.

    As for Jer 31:22, the rest of the verse helps to:

    How long will you wander, O unfaithful daughter?&nbsp;The LORD will create a new thing on earth- a woman will surround&nbsp;a man." (Jer 31:22)

    Also keep in mind the rest of the chapter explains the context as well.&nbsp; Jer 31:1-26 is a reference to God restoring his people in the covenant.&nbsp; How?&nbsp; By establishing a new covenant (Jer 31:27-33).&nbsp; And Hebrews 8:7-13 literally quotes Jer 31:31-33.

    So I think the 'new thing on earth' mentioned in Jer 31:22 is&nbsp;a 'new heavens and new earth', which is&nbsp;a 'new creation' (2 Cor 5:17)&nbsp;as Hahn would say.

    In anycase, I believe the 'woman encompassing a man' is a reference to the heavenly Jerusalem, our mother (Gal 4:26).&nbsp; [Honestly I think Rev 12's reference to the 'woman giving birth to the messiah' may also be about the Church, the bride of christ as well as a reference to Mary.]

    Anyway, here's what the New Jerome Biblical Commentary says about this passage:

    ------------------------------

    The only difficulty in the passage lies in the last sentence of v 22.&nbsp; The MT reads neqeba tesobeb gaber, "female shall encompass a man"; the LXX has an entirely different text, i.e., "men will walk in salvation."&nbsp; A host of explanations have been proposed since Jerome's theory of a pure maiological and christological prophecy (PL 28.255; 24.880-81).&nbsp; We shall indicate only two explanations.&nbsp; The verb sabab would mean "to protect," as in Deut 31:10 and Ps 32:7,10; thus, woman protecting man is a sign of the great security to be experiened during the return and the new settlement in Palestine (Penna, Rudolph).&nbsp; But this seems to be foreign to the immediate context.&nbsp; We prefer to interpret the sentence&nbsp; in the context of symbolic language, where "woman" personified Israel and "man," Yahweh.&nbsp; Indeed, Jeremiah still talks of Israel as an adulterous wife (Hos 1-3; Jer 2:20ff.) who has to be divorced by Yahweh, her husband (3:1).&nbsp; If she now adheres to her husband, certainly this is something new- something unheard of in her entire history (cf v. 19)

    (New Jerome Biblical Commentary, P. 289)

    ------------------------------

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  11. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    What is this??? :confused:

    I came to this thread expecting to have a chance to talk about how much Mary means to me and how much I love her and how much she loves me, but instead I run into prolonged debate, in a nondebate forum, no less.

    Really guys, I'm terribly disappointed. I hoped I would have a chance to share my heart in this thread. I guess I was sadly mistaken. :sigh:
     
  12. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    Hi Joe,

    I'm sorry if I sound like I'm intentionally debating.&nbsp; However, I'm more or less just posting my thoughts.&nbsp; I'm not trying to tear apart anyone or anything like that.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  13. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

    +538
    Catholic
    US-Others
    I guess I thought this was a different kind of thread.
     
  14. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    No one is claiming there was a "physical union" are they?

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  15. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    True =)&nbsp;

    It's just that the&nbsp;word 'spouse' almost implies it ;)

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  16. Theresa

    Theresa With Reason

    +186
    Catholic
    I don't know. If Mary concieved of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God and she conceived Jesus and Jesus is God does that imply a physical union? I mean, it doesn't sit well with a human mindset but God's thoughts are not our thoughts, so who knows? All I know is it get's a bit heavy. I started reading a book called "Theology for Beginners" and I can't finish it because it just goes to deep. Once I start thinking theology it doesn't stop, it's like a title wave.

    Anyways, Jesus is the only human in all of human history who chose who his mother would be! That in itself, is a heavy thought!

    Thanx, Luv
    Theresa
     
  17. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
    But we are the Bride of Christ, too, Jason... :)

    The idea that there was a physical union was condemned by the Church a long time ago, I believe... I'll have to hunt it down...

    God Bless,

    Neal
     
  18. isshinwhat

    isshinwhat Pro Deo et Patria

    +605
    Eastern Orthodox
  19. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +54
    Catholic
    I'm in full agreement! =)

    The point I was stressing is the fact that to equate Mary as Mother of the Son, daughter of the Father, and spouse of the Holy Spirit (which I find a bit weird), it almost sounds as if&nbsp;the focus of the covenant is between God and Mary, not God and his people, which is exactly what the new covenant is all about:&nbsp; we are his bride (his people) and he is our God (Rev 21:3, Heb 8:10, etc).

    In anycase, I read through the articles, and some of it made it a bit easier to understand.&nbsp;&nbsp;I noticed a deep connection made in the article relating the woman in Rev 12 with Mary AND the Church, but I don't know if&nbsp;I would go any further in&nbsp;mariology.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
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