Mary, Muslims, and Gratitude

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

This was an interesting find; I was trying to learn a little more Marian theology for a class project on Our Lady of Czestochowa, and came across a Muslim discussing Mary & the spirit of gratitude. I thought this would be good for everyone to see, so I didn't put it in a Christians-only forum. It seemed like a good way to bring everyone together; people of any (if any) religion can all get behind a spirit of gratitude, I suppose.

Without further delay, I shall turn it over to the friendly Muslim dude on YouTube:

Peace out, God bless, remember to say thanks!

 

[Elisha's Bear]

There are subtle insinuations that the quality of Thanksgiving through Islam is superior to that of Christianity and the speaking of Arabic to Mary by the angels (probably derived from the doctrine that the Quran can only be read and truly understood in Arabic). Not much of an inclusive message, really.

 

[dzheremi]

Right in his attitude, wrong in his religion. I suspect this is probably true of a large number of those who have been trapped in Islam/Muhammadanism (and I only call it the latter here because of the closing frame, which extols viewers to "Be the messengers of the Messenger"). Lord have mercy.

And if our friend has suggested the video makers intend to convey a superiority to speak to the Theotokos in Arabic is "better", fear not! We in the Eastern churches have you covered! (Largely thanks to the Islamic conquests of the 7th century, but that's for another thread...)

افراحي يا مريام - Ifrahi Ya Maryam (Rejoice O Mary; Coptic Orthodox hymn)

صلاتك معنا - Salatuki Ma'na (Your Prayers Are With Us; Maronite Catholic hymn)

يا ام الله - Ya Um Allah (O Mother Of God; Greek Orthodox hymn)

There's no greater gratitude or worship or anything good than is already found in boundless abundance in the Christian faith, in any language or culture.

 

[Barney2.0]

Right in his attitude, wrong in his religion. I suspect this is probably true of a large number of those who have been trapped in Islam/Muhammadanism (and I only call it the latter here because of the closing frame, which extols viewers to "Be the messengers of the Messenger"). Lord have mercy.

And if our friend has suggested the video makers intend to convey a superiority to speak to the Theotokos in Arabic is "better", fear not! We in the Eastern churches have you covered! (Largely thanks to the Islamic conquests of the 7th century, but that's for another thread...)

افراحي يا مريام - Ifrahi Ya Maryam (Rejoice O Mary; Coptic Orthodox hymn)

صلاتك معنا - Salatuki Ma'na (Your Prayers Are With Us; Maronite Catholic hymn)

يا ام الله - Ya Um Allah (O Mother Of God; Greek Orthodox hymn)

There's no greater gratitude or worship or anything good than is already found in boundless abundance in the Christian faith, in any language or culture.

Dzheremi what’s the difference between Coptic and Syriac hymns they seem to be similar in their use of instruments in contrast to Byzantine hymns.

 

[Barney2.0]

Islam has absolutely no respect for Christ or his mother, infact in contrast to what many Muslims preach and think, the reason Mary has a Surah named after her, is to demote her position amongst Christians and refute the Christian exaltation of her by revealing that she was a bond servant and concubine, the word جارية as used in Tafsir Al Suyuti is translated to as bondservant or concubine. This can be found in Tafsir Al Suyuti. Also an Iraqi evangelical Christian apologist by the name of John who has YouTube channel and a website in Arabic wrote about Mary’s actual position in Islam and how the Islamic sources actually view her, refuting the Muslim charge that they respect and love the mother of Christ:


مدونة الأخ جان لمقارنة الأديان: كتاب : مريم كما يراها المسلمون

I’ve even had a Muslim tell me recently that Jesus was a failed prophet who failed to reach out to his people and his message got corrupted, so Mohammed was sent to correct and fix everything Christ couldn’t do. This was after I challenged him with my question of how could God let man corrupt the message of Christ, and isn’t a great prophet of God (in his viewpoint) more powerful and wise then normal men, and why didn’t Christ stop his message from getting corrupted and why didn’t God stop it as it would mean Christ and God himself is weaker then men. The response shocked me when he basically said, yeah so what Christ was a failed prophet just like Noah was, but God sent Mohammed to fix everything. These are the people who respect Christ and the ever virgin, these are heretics nothing more. Sure we love Muslims as people and want to bring them the Gospel of Christ so that they may be saved in which case they can’t be Muslims any more, but be Christians. Other then that there’s no commonality between us, this imaginary bridge between us that people keep talking about simply doesn’t exist. We shouldn’t be led into a false sense of ecumenism with heretics who insult Christ and his mother and clearly revile everything we hold dear. When we celebrate the incarnation on Christmas they say astaghfirullah, when they see us wearing the cross they say as astaghfirullah, when they see a statue or icon of Christ they say astaghfirullah, when they see our scriptures they say astaghfirullah, when they see a Church they say astaghfirullah, when they hear the name Christian they think astaghfirullah, when we celebrate food Friday and Easter, he’s they also say astaghfirullah. We’re not friends or brothers in faith with these people, we only love them as people to bring them out of heresy and unto the truth. Any sort of dialogue between them and us, should be us giving them the truth and calling them to it, not us praying together in a mosque or them praying in our Churches. Sorry, but we’re not together on faith, Orthodoxy doesn’t stand hand in hand with heresy.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi what’s the difference between Coptic and Syriac hymns they seem to be similar in their use of instruments in contrast to Byzantine hymns.

Syriac Church music follows the 8-tone (octoechos) system, while Coptic Church music (and Ethiopian/Eritrean) does not. Syriacs use the fan (I forgot the name for this; sorry), while Copts do not. Copts have used the cymbal and the triangle since the middle ages, though they are not traditional to Coptic hymns and are to be used as sparingly as possible (though obviously there are excesses in this area in some parishes; in my own, they were only brought out when we lost the rhythm of the chant, or very occasionally for feast days).

Regarding the use of musical instruments (melody producing instruments, which are strictly banned in the Coptic Orthodox tradition in favor of only time-keeping instruments), the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate has written regarding this, since the use of keyboard is growing among those people and it is a cause for concern. It is written:

Instruments in the Syriac Orthodox Liturgy:

Traditionally, Syriac Liturgy did not have instruments. The hymns were sung àcapella The use of instruments is a foreign practice not part of our tradition, & against the theology of our Orthodox Christian faith. Departures from the Syriac musical genre & frequent innovations affects participation of the entire congregation in liturgical music & detracts from the sanctity & purpose of liturgical music. Anything which distracts one from complete focus & elevating one’s soul up to the heights of heaven is something which must not take place during the Divine Liturgy. When instrumentation gets in the way of this, the Divine Liturgy is then transformed into an act of performance art.The Syriac Church fathers warned us about the detriments of using instruments & innovations in melodies.

1. St. John Chrysostom (Mor Ivanios the Golden-Tongued) says, "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety."

2. Mor Dionysius Yac'ub Bar Salibi in his treatise against the Melchites (Chalcedonian/Eastern Orthodox) writes, "How is it that you who have been ordered to sing spiritual songs endeavour to mix with the Church songs those relaxing Kinatha (melodies) & loose tones, & thus weaken with these same Kinatha the vigour of the souls which have hardened themselves against the passions, & mortified their bodies by ascetic works, & begun to sing with angels?”

3. Mor Gregorios Yuhannon bar'Ebroyo writes in the Ethicon, "Spiritual musical texts are demur, mournful & causing sadness & afterwards a chaste desire while the soul washes away with tears the stains of sin." Regarding instruments he says, "But because they are used nowadays at voluptuous festivals & drinking-bouts, it is not becoming to use them."

Instruments (keyboard etc) entered the Church because of lack of knowledge on theology behind our Liturgical traditions & loss of learned teachers due to persecutions.​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There are subtle insinuations that the quality of Thanksgiving through Islam is superior to that of Christianity and the speaking of Arabic to Mary by the angels (probably derived from the doctrine that the Quran can only be read and truly understood in Arabic). Not much of an inclusive message, really.

Since the religion is not inclusive, the message would not be supporting inclusive.
The message of the Bible is not inclusive either, at all.

 

[Elisha's Bear]

The message of the Bible is not inclusive either, at all.

Not inclusive at all?

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (Matthew 18:11-14)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings (Matthew 23:37)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not inclusive at all?

?? missed the category ??

No other religion. No other way.

Only in Jesus and thru the narrow gate (Jesus) can anyone enter heaven in the life to come, and ONLY by Jesus Blood can sins be atoned for.