Mary, mother of Jesus

HTacianas

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Why you asking Mary for intercession when Jesus intercedes for us to His Father. No one can do that but Jesus, and no one loves us more than Him. Nowhere in the Bible it says people in Heaven know what is going on Earth. They do not need to speak to God as Jesus already does so and there is no bigger than Jesus. If you want to respect Mary and Saints, thank God for them and do the will of the Heavenly Father and not build icons (idols).

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

We see them in heaven, we see them crying out to God. They are aware of what is happening on the earth else they would not know they have not yet been avenged.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

We see them in heaven, we see them crying out to God. They are aware of what is happening on the earth else they would not know they have not yet been avenged.

These are the martyrs. If you notice, they are not the resurrected bodies, and they know not all their brothers and sisters have been saved yet. That means God has not yet judged the sinners, and they are eagerly awaiting that. They do not know what is going on on Earth.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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She is likened to many things and given many titles; basically because she conceived and bore God in flesh in her womb, nursed Him, raised Him, loved Him in a totally unique and personal way as His Mother, and was united to Him in love and suffering at the foot of the Cross. She is amazing! And wonderful.

Pagans have no problems giving respect and honor to the mothers of their false prophets or false gods. But many Christians shrink from or even ridicule Mary. That’s sad. She is truly unique, blessed, holy, and honored. She bore God in her womb, and became His mother on earth. That is awesome. We should remember that and be in awe of that, as Christians.

I love Mary as I do all of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do thank God for choosing her and blessing her, but that's it. But I do not pray to her, we are ought to pray in Jesus' name as He is the High Priest and Mediator sitting by the right hand of the Heavenly Father interceding for our own behalf. No one does that only Jesus. Only Jesus is the way, only Jesus is salvation and no one can add to that, not Mary nor any other Saints. Building statues of her and calling churches by her name is blasphemy.

Btw, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, not Mary.
 
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anna ~ grace

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I love Mary as I do all of my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do thank God for choosing her and blessing her, but that's it. But I do not pray to her, we are ought to pray in Jesus' name as He is the High Priest and Mediator sitting by the right hand of the Heavenly Father interceding for our own behalf. No one does that only Jesus. Only Jesus is the way, only Jesus is salvation and no one can add to that, not Mary nor any other Saints. Building statues of her and calling churches by her name is blasphemy.

Btw, the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, not Mary.
Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Margaret Barker's Mariology lends itself to worship, insomuch as she questions the removal of the asherah a 'tree of life' from the Temple. She claims that there was a distinct (more orthodox) position that Josiah and the Deutero-Mosaic reforms displaced. She argues that there was once a Lady of the Temple, this 'Queen of Heaven' whom surrounding cults identified (perhaps wrongly) as Astarte.

I mention her because she and her Mariology are making their rounds in Catholic and Orthodox circles, even informing apologists like Scott Hahn (of whom I first heard the title, 'Queen of Heaven' explained).

First, no one worships Mary. Second, when Solomon sat down as king, none of his wives were made queen. His mother sat as queen. That was the tradition of Judaism all along. So to say that Mary is the queen of heaven is in keeping with that tradition. Everything else you've said has been beaten to death already.

Mary is the theotokos, and she is worthy of the respect we give her.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Margaret Barker
Margaret Barker' Mariology lends itself to worship, insomuch as she questions the removal of the asherah a 'tree of life' from the Temple. She claims that there was a distinct (more orthodox) position that Josiah and the Deutero-Mosaic reforms displaced. She argues that there was once a Lady of the Temple, this 'Queen of Heaven' whom surrounding cults identified (perhaps wrongly) as Astarte.

I mention here because she and her Mariology are making their rounds in Catholic and Orthodox circles, even informing apologists like Scott Hahn (of whom I first heard the title, 'Queen of Heaven' explained).
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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You seem to be confusing nature and person.
Jesus called her, 'Mother'. He is God, a Divine person. He is not a human person. Therefore, God, the Logos, has a Mother, not according to his Divine nature but according to his human nature. God was indeed born, died and resurrected (again according to his human nature).

Mary never claimed that she was the mother of God. The Bible explains that she gave birth to “the Son of God,” not God himself.—Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32.

Jesus Christ never said that Mary was God’s mother or that she was worthy of special devotion. In fact, he corrected a woman who gave special attention to Mary’s happy role as his mother, saying: “No, rather, happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it!”—Luke 11:27, 2

The terms “Mother of God” and “Theotokos” (God-bearer) are not found in the Bible.

The expression “Queen of Heaven” in the Bible refers, not to Mary, but to a false goddess worshipped by apostate Israelites. (Jeremiah 44:15-19) The “Queen of Heaven” may have been Ishtar (Astarte), a Babylonian goddess.

Early Christians did not worship Mary, nor did they give her any special honor. One historian states that early Christians “would have rejected cults and probably feared that undue attention to Mary might evoke a suspicion of goddess worship.”—In Quest of the Jewish Mary.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The last few months I've seen quite a few times people referring to Mary as the queen of heaven. Why do people refer to her like that? Nowhere in the Bible is she referred to as one.

To say such thing is a blasphemy.
Jeremiah 7:17-20 'Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? declares the Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? Therefore thus says the Lord God: behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.”

Mary, saints, angels nor anyone else is to be worshipped but God only, so why do people worship Mary and Saints? Why do people make statuses out of her? Worship Mary, and when you die she, herself will condemn you to hell for such blasphemy.

Yes, Mary is the mother of Jesus, but at the same time she is not as God does not have a mother. She is not to be worshipped, we may thank God for her and other saints but that's it.

I also seen some people saying she was without sin, but in Luke 1:47 she says 'and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,' If she was without sin, she would not need a saviour. Yes, Mary carried and gave to birth to Jesus, but at the same time Jesus was her savior.

And why do people call her virgin Mary? She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, so in that sense it is ok. We must also note that she had other children after Jesus which we clearly see in Mark 6:3 for example '3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.'

Why to I write this? So we don't make Mary and the Saints something that they are not.

The reason for the term Theostokos (God bearer, or mother of God) was not intended to venerate Mary at all. The purpose of the term was to indicate that Jesus was God from the time He was incarnated in her womb. That Mary gave birth to God, not to a man nor to a human body whom God entered afterwards. Personally I prefer the term Christotokos (Messiah bearer or mother of The Messiah) since it is actually correct and not as controversial. Nestorius was labeled as a heretic for using this term but it’s not because of the term itself but instead his definition of the term. It’s just a matter of understanding why the Church chose Theostokos over Christotokos. Please read Cyril’s second letter to Nestorius and you can see how Theostokos was defined by the early church and exactly what is meant by it.

Cyril’s second letter to Nestorius

I hear that some are rashly talking of the estimation in which I hold your holiness, and that this is frequently the case especially at the times that meetings are held of those in authority. And perchance they think in so doing to say something agreeable to you, but they speak senselessly, for they have suffered no injustice at my hands, but have been exposed by me only to their profit; this man as an oppressor of the blind and needy, and that as one who wounded his mother with a sword. Another because he stole, in collusion with his waiting maid, another’s money, and had always laboured under the imputation of such like crimes as no one would wish even one of his bitterest enemies to be laden with. I take little reckoning of the words of such people, for the disciple is not above his Master, nor would I stretch the measure of my narrow brain above the Fathers, for no matter what path of life one pursues it is hardly possible to escape the smirching of the wicked, whose mouths are full of cursing and bitterness, and who at the last must give an account to the Judge of all.

But I return to the point which especially I had in mind. And now I urge you, as a brother in the Lord, to propose the word of teaching and the doctrine of the faith with all accuracy to the people, and to consider that the giving of scandal to one even of the least of those who believe in Christ, exposes a body to the unbearable indignation of God. And of how great diligence and skill there is need when the multitude of those grieved is so great, so that we may administer the healing word of truth to them that seek it. But this we shall accomplish most excellently if we shall turn over the words of the holy Fathers, and are zealous to obey their commands, proving ourselves, whether we be in the faith according to that which is written, and conform our thoughts to their upright and irreprehensible teaching.

The holy and great Synod therefore says, that the only begotten Son, born according to nature of God the Father, very God of very God, Light of Light, by whom the Father made all things, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man, suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven. These words and these decrees we ought to follow, considering what is meant by the Word of God being incarnate and made man. For we do not say that the nature of the Word was changed and became flesh, or that it was converted into a whole man consisting of soul and body; but rather that the Word having personally united to himself flesh animated by a rational soul, did in an ineffable and inconceivable manner become man, and was called the Son of Man, not merely as willing or being pleased to be so called, neither on account of taking to himself a person, but because the two natures being brought together in a true union, there is of both one Christ and one Son; for the difference of the natures is not taken away by the union, but rather the divinity and the humanity make perfect for us the one Lord Jesus Christ by their ineffable and inexpressible union.

So then he who had an existence before all ages and was born of the Father, is said to have been born according to the flesh of a woman, not as though his divine nature received its beginning of existence in the holy Virgin, for it needed not any second generation after that of the Father (for it would be absurd and foolish to say that he who existed before all ages, coeternal with the Father, needed any second beginning of existence), but since, for us and for our salvation, he personally united to himself an human body, and came forth of a woman, he is in this way said to be born after the flesh; for he was not first born a common man of the holy Virgin, and then the Word came down and entered into him, but the union being made in the womb itself, he is said to endure a birth after the flesh, ascribing to himself the birth of his own flesh. On this account we say that he suffered and rose again; not as if God the Word suffered in his own nature stripes, or the piercing of the nails, or any other wounds, for the Divine nature is incapable of suffering, inasmuch as it is incorporeal, but since that which had become his own body suffered in this way, he is also said to suffer for us; for he who is in himself incapable of suffering was in a suffering body.

In the same manner also we conceive respecting his dying; for the Word of God is by nature immortal and incorruptible, and life and life-giving; since, however, his own body did, as Paul says, by the grace of God taste death for every man, he himself is said to have suffered death for us, not as if he had any experience of death in his own nature (for it would be madness to say or think this), but because, as I have just said, his flesh tasted death. In like manner his flesh being raised again, it is spoken of as his resurrection, not as if he had fallen into corruption (God forbid), but because his own body was raised again.

We, therefore, confess one Christ and Lord, not as worshipping a man with the Word (lest this expression “with the Word” should suggest to the mind the idea of division), but worshipping him as one and the same, forasmuch as the body of the Word, with which he sits with the Father, is not separated from the Word himself, not as if two sons were sitting with him, but one by the union with the flesh. If, however, we reject the personal union as impossible or unbecoming, we fall into the error of speaking of two sons, for it will be necessary to distinguish, and to say, that he who was properly man was honoured with the appellation of Son, and that he who is properly the Word of God, has by nature both the name and the reality of Sonship.

We must not, therefore, divide the one Lord Jesus Christ into two Sons. Neither will it at all avail to a sound faith to hold, as some do, a union of persons; for the Scripture has not said that the Word united to himself the person of man, but that he was made flesh. This expression, however, “the Word was made flesh,” can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin, the Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word being personally united is said to be born according to the flesh.

These things, therefore, I now write unto you for the love of Christ, beseeching you as a brother, and testifying to you before Christ and the elect angels, that you would both think and teach these things with us, that the peace of the Churches may be preserved and the bond of concord and love continue unbroken amongst the Priests of God. Send greetings to the brothers who are with you.

Those who are with me send greetings in Christ.
 
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BNR32FAN

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catholic.com answers it this way:


however, I think this answer avoids the question and just speaks of why Mary could have a title framed as queen in a specific tradition without actually saying this is the reason. it also doesn't quite make sense as Mary is not called the "queen mother" but "Queen of Heaven" which would be parallel with the Father figure of the godhead, not the Son figure. I'm a pentecostal and I see all the time people pulling obscure biblical references to show why they do something or other stories to explain it but they really don't address the issue and all they have done is searched and found passages only after it's been questioned but the verses in question have nothing to do with it.

a lot of traditions will claim biblical support for things that are actually more biblical-themed. A popular one is the ceremony of the eucharist that is rich in symbols pulled right out of the bible and in a sense, it's like an interpretive dance. there's nothing wrong with the performance but the bible doesn't have instructions or requirements for the performance (certainly not to that articulation) so it does not support all the detail even though it is heavily based on biblical themes. It's like if a church were to start Sunday off every week by rolling a large stone away from the doors to let everyone in to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, this is creative and perhaps inspiring but it can only be called biblical themed not biblical supported. The explanation cathloic.com gives here is capturing the biblical theme of the title but not the biblical support.

The truth of the matter is 4th century Rome was predisposed to pagan practices (because 3rd century Rome was pagan) so much so that a pagan mindset and thinking were applied to Christianity. You could call it a form of contextualization to replace god and goddess with biblical characters and use a more church-approved version of homage to these individuals. Call it what you will but it has created a culture outside of biblical instruction and influenced by other means and this culture seems to have a lot of biblical-themed explanations but lacks biblical support. for the eucharist, I think creativity like this should be encouraged but I think with Mary it hasn't been navigated well.

Rome didn’t control the Church. The Church had been persecuted for centuries for refusing to conform to paganism. It was Constantine who finally gave in to the Catholic Church not the church who gave in to Constantine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Well simple, because she did something that no man, no woman, no prophet, saint, martyr, nor any of the heavenly hosts in all of history ever did or could hope to do.

I disagree with this as this implies that God couldn’t have chosen anyone else. There’s nothing in the scriptures to indicate that, furthermore it was God who did it not Mary. He chose her so it’s not something Mary accomplished it was something she was blessed with having the honor to do. Granted she did comply with God but that’s not to say that no one else would’ve.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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I don't believe God chose Mary, but rather, created her specifically to be the Theotokos. Also, Mary was regenerated prior to the Annunciation, so Monergism is not really at stake. Mary's will was free to cooperate with God. So she deserves honor, thanks and praise for her choice.

I disagree with this as this implies that God couldn’t have chosen anyone else. There’s nothing in the scriptures to indicate that, furthermore it was God who did it not Mary. He chose her so it’s not something Mary accomplished it was something she was blessed with having the honor to do. Granted she did comply with God but that’s not to say that no one else would’ve.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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FYI, choosing is not something God does. He's immutable. Choosing is something we do, being subjected to mutability post fall.
I disagree with this as this implies that God couldn’t have chosen anyone else. There’s nothing in the scriptures to indicate that, furthermore it was God who did it not Mary. He chose her so it’s not something Mary accomplished it was something she was blessed with having the honor to do. Granted she did comply with God but that’s not to say that no one else would’ve.
 
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I like the contrast of disciples with flesh ties to family responsibility. Mary is the aspect of the visible church altho the churches I went to seemed to replace worship/praise with adoration of ElShadai, and eludes to the New Jerusalem as being the equation when giving the Father His place. Rama as son of sorrow?
 
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BNR32FAN

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FYI, choosing is not something God does. He's immutable. Choosing is something we do, being subjected to mutability post fall.

I’m not quite sure what you mean sister, God has been choosing people for thousands of years.
 
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Thatgirloncfforums

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Oh, wow! Yes. I never looked at it that way. Lovely.
I like the contrast of disciples with flesh ties to family responsibility. Mary is the aspect of the visible church altho the churches I went to seemed to replace worship/praise with adoration of ElShadai, and eludes to the New Jerusalem as being the equation when giving the Father His place. Rama as son of sorrow?
 
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I’m not quite sure what you mean sister, God has been choosing people for thousands of years.
Choice implies decision between 2 opposites, like good and evil, does it not?

I like that you call me sister. I do the same but in my theological circles (Lutheran and Catholic) I receive odd glances lol.
 
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Choice implies decision between 2 opposites, like good and evil, does it not?

Not necessarily. God very specifically chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus. Does that mean someone else was ruled out of contention for having been too evil?

Okay Okay You already decided that Mary wasn't chosen, so forget the words of the angel who was sent to her and said that she was. How about God having a "Chosen race?"
 
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I don't believe God chose Mary, but rather, created her specifically to be the Theotokos. Also, Mary was regenerated prior to the Annunciation, so Monergism is not really at stake. Mary's will was free to cooperate with God. So she deserves honor, thanks and praise for her choice.

I don’t believe in Monergism I believe In Synergism.
 
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Choice implies decision between 2 opposites, like good and evil, does it not?

No it does not. A choice does not have to be between opposites at all. God could’ve just as easily chosen Elizabeth or any other Jewish woman to bring Jesus into the world as long as they were a descendant of David.
 
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