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Mary, mother of Jesus

Discussion in 'Mariology & Hagiography' started by Ivan Hlavanda, Jul 17, 2021.

  1. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    The last few months I've seen quite a few times people referring to Mary as the queen of heaven. Why do people refer to her like that? Nowhere in the Bible is she referred to as one.

    To say such thing is a blasphemy.
    Jeremiah 7:17-20 'Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. Is it I whom they provoke? declares the Lord. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? Therefore thus says the Lord God: behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.”

    Mary, saints, angels nor anyone else is to be worshipped but God only, so why do people worship Mary and Saints? Why do people make statuses out of her? Worship Mary, and when you die she, herself will condemn you to hell for such blasphemy.

    Yes, Mary is the mother of Jesus, but at the same time she is not as God does not have a mother. She is not to be worshipped, we may thank God for her and other saints but that's it.

    I also seen some people saying she was without sin, but in Luke 1:47 she says 'and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,' If she was without sin, she would not need a saviour. Yes, Mary carried and gave to birth to Jesus, but at the same time Jesus was her savior.

    And why do people call her virgin Mary? She was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, so in that sense it is ok. We must also note that she had other children after Jesus which we clearly see in Mark 6:3 for example '3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.'

    Why to I write this? So we don't make Mary and the Saints something that they are not.
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    It's a failing of humans to do that sort of thing. I am referring to the tendency to heap up ever more elegant titles of honor and even to produce legends about the person they admire. It has happened with political leaders and the main personalities in non-Christian religions as well.

    The personages being lionized may have been flawed or rather ordinary in life although there is something about them that deserves to be admired. So after they are dead, the weaknesses are played down or totally ignored while the admirable traits or accomplishments are lauded and commemorated with titles, ceremonies, fanciful stories that are wild exaggerations or downright fiction, and so on. Each one has a way of forcing the next round of praise to "raise the bar" as it were. Ultimately, the person is remade entirely...in the telling, that is.
     
  3. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    The reason Mary is referred to as the Mother of God (Theotokos) is because to fail to do so implies that Christ's nature is separated into the God part and the man part, where standard Christology holds that Jesus was fully God and fully man and the two natures are not separate, so to say that Mary was just the mother of the man part of Christ is, so far as Orthodox theology is concerned, heresy because of the implications it has about the two natures of Christ.

    If you accept that Christ is fully God and fully man in a mystical union then you should have no issue with Mary being the Theotokos. That is not to say that Mary was involved in the creation of God, God is of course uncreated, but if you are to say that Christ is God and Mary is His mother then she is the Mother of God, or otherwise you have to deal with the implications of separating the God-ness of Christ from the man-ness of Christ.
     
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  4. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    catholic.com answers it this way:
    however, I think this answer avoids the question and just speaks of why Mary could have a title framed as queen in a specific tradition without actually saying this is the reason. it also doesn't quite make sense as Mary is not called the "queen mother" but "Queen of Heaven" which would be parallel with the Father figure of the godhead, not the Son figure. I'm a pentecostal and I see all the time people pulling obscure biblical references to show why they do something or other stories to explain it but they really don't address the issue and all they have done is searched and found passages only after it's been questioned but the verses in question have nothing to do with it.

    a lot of traditions will claim biblical support for things that are actually more biblical-themed. A popular one is the ceremony of the eucharist that is rich in symbols pulled right out of the bible and in a sense, it's like an interpretive dance. there's nothing wrong with the performance but the bible doesn't have instructions or requirements for the performance (certainly not to that articulation) so it does not support all the detail even though it is heavily based on biblical themes. It's like if a church were to start Sunday off every week by rolling a large stone away from the doors to let everyone in to celebrate the resurrection of Christ, this is creative and perhaps inspiring but it can only be called biblical themed not biblical supported. The explanation cathloic.com gives here is capturing the biblical theme of the title but not the biblical support.

    The truth of the matter is 4th century Rome was predisposed to pagan practices (because 3rd century Rome was pagan) so much so that a pagan mindset and thinking were applied to Christianity. You could call it a form of contextualization to replace god and goddess with biblical characters and use a more church-approved version of homage to these individuals. Call it what you will but it has created a culture outside of biblical instruction and influenced by other means and this culture seems to have a lot of biblical-themed explanations but lacks biblical support. for the eucharist, I think creativity like this should be encouraged but I think with Mary it hasn't been navigated well.
     
  5. Phronema

    Phronema Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's a 14 page thread in this sub-forum where this topic was already talked about extensively.

    Queen of heaven
     
  6. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    When the angel greets Mary he says 'Hail Mary, full of grace, blessed art thou among women!' why would she be considered blessed among women? Well simple, because she did something that no man, no woman, no prophet, saint, martyr, nor any of the heavenly hosts in all of history ever did or could hope to do. Mary is the vessel through which God descended onto this earth to save mankind. Now if you really think about that, and what it means, does the title 'Queen of heaven' really leave that much of a bad taste in your mouth? Consider also that Mary did not resent this blessing, she was dumbfounded, but not reluctant to be the vessel of grace for all mankind. If you really believe in Christian doctrine then it makes total sense to hold Mary in high regard. These titles given to Mary are bestowed because aside from Christ Himself she is completely unique in human history. It seems to me like the people who like to thump their Bibles don't really tie things together and think about them in terms of their implications. Christ was God who came down to dwell among us and die for our sins, is that problematic? If the answer is no, then you can extrapolate that Mary is unique, blessed, and worthy of honour and veneration for her role in our salvation, but instead people stop short of that because it is not expressly stated in scripture. And lets not get started on the fact that the canon of scripture was not established until the Church had been in existence for a century of two...

    Again, if you refuse to call her the Mother of God you commit heresy, because you essentially are saying that Jesus the man, is separate from Christ God. There are all sorts of implications of this, namely that it renders the death and resurrection merely the death and resurrection of a part of God. All of these arguments were had by Christians centuries ago, and it's not just because people wanted to flirt with paganism that the Orthodox Mariology was established. It's just that people thought about and debated over the implications of these things.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Yes. Nothing you just recounted had anything to do with a Queen of heaven.

    That hasn't been denied. The issue concerned certain titles.

    Enough has been said here that this slant on the subject should no longer be argued. It's not that honor is wrong. And it's not that the Bible doesn't use the term "Queen of Heaven" (although that gets mentioned sometimes as just one more reason for questioning the creation of such a title).
     
  8. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    I mean we could argue about the specific meaning of Queen of Heaven, but my point is that she holds a completely unique position. As the Orthodox services say 'more honourable than the Cherubim and imcomparably more glorious than the Seraphim', she is more honoured than all the other heavenly hosts because she 'gave birth to God the Word'. Now we could argue about whether there is actually an office in the heavenly realm called 'Queen' that is analogous to an earthly Queen or whatever, but that is missing the point, the point is that the term Queen is used in reference to her utterly unique position among all creation.
     
  9. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    First, no one worships Mary. Second, when Solomon sat down as king, none of his wives were made queen. His mother sat as queen. That was the tradition of Judaism all along. So to say that Mary is the queen of heaven is in keeping with that tradition. Everything else you've said has been beaten to death already.

    Mary is the theotokos, and she is worthy of the respect we give her.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    That's IT????

    If that were the whole of the issue, I suppose all of us would agree...including the member who questioned the use of the title "Queen of Heaven."
     
  11. Lawrence87

    Lawrence87 Active Member

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    Well I mean that's it so far as my understanding goes, but if I am mistaken in my understanding then I'm happy to be corrected.

    My point is that this aversion to Mary is completely unwarranted, even the reformers had no issue with calling Mary the Mother of God, and with her perpetual virginity etc. And they were going by the same Bible... The subject has been done to death, and frankly I think the aversion to Mary has Christological implications that people fail to consider.
     
  12. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    I did not mean to imply that Jesus has two separate natures. I know Jesus is fully God fully man, so sorry if it looks like I am separating them.

    Theotokos simply implies that Mary carried God in her womb and gave birth to Him. Mary was the human agent through whom the eternal Son of God took on a human body and a human nature and entered the world. The term Theotokos was a succinct expression of the biblical teaching of the Incarnation, and that is how the Council of Ephesus used the word. Mary is the “God-bearer” in that within her body the divine person of God the Son took on human nature in addition to His pre-existing divine nature. Since Jesus is fully God and fully man, it is correct to say that Mary “bore” God.

    Mary simply not must be worshiped, nor idolized, nor be called the queen of Heaven. To honour Mary, do the will of Jesus.
     
  13. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Thank you. But my point of this thread was to mainly point out that Mary, Saints should not be worshipped, idolized, or to be praying to.
     
  14. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Mary never claimed that she was the mother of God. The Bible explains that she gave birth to “the Son of God,” not God himself.—Mark 1:1; Luke 1:32.

    Jesus Christ never said that Mary was God’s mother or that she was worthy of special devotion. In fact, he corrected a woman who gave special attention to Mary’s happy role as his mother, saying: “No, rather, happy are those hearing the word of God and keeping it!”—Luke 11:27, 2

    The terms “Mother of God” and “Theotokos” (God-bearer) are not found in the Bible.

    The expression “Queen of Heaven” in the Bible refers, not to Mary, but to a false goddess worshipped by apostate Israelites. (Jeremiah 44:15-19) The “Queen of Heaven” may have been Ishtar (Astarte), a Babylonian goddess.

    Early Christians did not worship Mary, nor did they give her any special honor. One historian states that early Christians “would have rejected cults and probably feared that undue attention to Mary might evoke a suspicion of goddess worship.”—In Quest of the Jewish Mary.
     
  15. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    As I said at the very beginning of my post, no one worships Mary.
     
  16. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Everyone who does the will of Heavenly Father is blessed. But yes, she was blessed to bore Jesus. But even she was a sinner and needed Jesus to save her.

    Salvation is through Christ alone. He worked it 100%, no one else had any part in it.
    No one comes to the Father except for Jesus. Jesus is being fully God and fully man is the mediator between God and man, and only He is to be prayed to not Mary, nor the Saints. Nor should their be Churches called after them, nor statuses build of them, because that's idolatry.
     
  17. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Then why do people pray to her and build statues of her?
     
  18. HTacianas

    HTacianas Well-Known Member

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    We ask for her intercession, along with the intercession of all the saints. All those righteous saints who have gone on are in the presence of God, they are aware of what is happening on the earth, and they speak to God. We create icons of the saints partly out of respect for them, but the tradition has always been to create icons to tell the story of salvation by visual means.
     
  19. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Why you asking Mary for intercession when Jesus intercedes for us to His Father. No one can do that but Jesus, and no one loves us more than Him. Nowhere in the Bible it says people in Heaven know what is going on Earth. They do not need to speak to God as Jesus already does so and there is no bigger than Jesus. If you want to respect Mary and Saints, thank God for them and do the will of the Heavenly Father and not build icons (idols).
     
  20. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    She is likened to many things and given many titles; basically because she conceived and bore God in flesh in her womb, nursed Him, raised Him, loved Him in a totally unique and personal way as His Mother, and was united to Him in love and suffering at the foot of the Cross. She is amazing! And wonderful.

    Pagans have no problems giving respect and honor to the mothers of their false prophets or false gods. But many Christians shrink from or even ridicule Mary. That’s sad. She is truly unique, blessed, holy, and honored. She bore God in her womb, and became His mother on earth. That is awesome. We should remember that and be in awe of that, as Christians.
     
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