Mary magnifies the Lord

[Albion]

The word Theotokos, where and when does it come from? It's not in the Bible, right?

The word is Greek and is a term of honor chosen by the early church. That it is not taken from the Bible, although the meaning is eminently Biblical, doesn't matter one way or the other to the discussion here.

 

[Concord1968]

I suspect this thread is going to inexorably drift into Nestorianism.....

 

[Kenny'sID]

I suspect this thread is going to inexorably drift into Nestorianism.....

They often get reported, and go away, hiding efforts to get what some of us feel is the truth out in the open.

 

[Concord1968]

They often get reported, and go away, hiding efforts to get what some of us feel is the truth out in the open.

So I take it you're a Nestorian? Or what are you trying to say here? Please clarify.

 

[Kenny'sID]

So I take it you're a Nestorian? Or what are you trying to say here? Please clarify.

I'm saying threads like this often get pulled, as in what you quoted.

Nestorian? IDK what that is.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Mary is not the Queen of Heaven.

[Citation needed]

Mary is not a "perpetual virgin", she had other children.

St. Jude and the “Brothers” of Jesus – Shameless Popery

Mary is not the "mediatrix", There is ONE Mediator between God and Man, and unless Mary hung on a CROSS and DIED FOR YOUR SIN, and rose again, then she does not qualify.

I don't think you understand what "mediatrix" means.

Mary is not going to meet you at your death

I assume you have never died before so I don't understand how you can possibly know that.

and you are never to pray to Mary.

 

[Kenny'sID]

[Citation needed]

I think the burden of proof is always on those who make the original claim so, citation please?

I don't think you understand what "mediatrix" means.

Will you enlighten us?

I assume you have never died before so I don't understand how you can possibly know that.

And you have?

As to no one batting an eye at asking our mother to pray for us, the reason they lose their minds (a clear overstatemen) if one asks Mary to pray for us is simple, why pray to someone who is dead? Makes perfect sense to a non Catholic, yet you seem to want to make it appear we are crazy, when in fact, there you go, a perfectly good explanation. Don't you think you were being a bit deceitful there? And if so, why the need to do so?

 

[packermann]

Is that a general catholic explanation, or your own?

That is my own, which shows that we Catholics do not just parrot what the Catholic Church tells us.

And what in the world does it have to do with the fact God was around long before Mary, so Mary couldn't possibly be the mother of God?

God was here long before Mary, the Trinity was here long before Mary. But Jesus's body did not exist before Mary. She only gave birth to His body. But that is enough to be His mother for two reasons:

1, For all of us, our mothers only gave birth to our bodies. Our souls came directly from God.

2. The Bible calls Mary Jesus' mother. That is good enough for me.

So Mary only gave birth to Son of God's physical body. And that is enough for her to be to be called His mother.

I mean if you, or Catholics in general (still not sure who created your explanation) are going to go to all that trouble try to deceive people, your explanation should at least have something to do with the subject

I must admit that I almost felt bad about saying you disrespected Mary, and ultimately Jesus. But the insults just keep coming. First, you accused me of idolatry. Now what is worse - being accused of idolatry or disrespecting Mary and even Jesus. I would think be accused of idolatry at first. And yet you far more upset than me about you accusation than I jhave lof yours. And now you accuse me and all Catholics to be deliberately deceptive.

I must warn you. The Catholic teaches what is called the "invincibility of ignorance". If one rejects the Catholic teaching purely on intellectual grounds then God will have mercy on on judgment day. This is why we try not to judge our Protestant brothers and sisters. I know that many Protestants sincerely to not believe Catholic dogma. God will have mercy on them. They have a love for God and love for the truth. They just cannot see what the Church teaches is true.

Be careful, my friend. All your insults and refusal to even look at my arguments fairly does not bode well for you. You better hope with all your might that the Catholic Faith is not the true faith. If it turn out on the Judgment Day that it is true, then you could be in a world of trouble. All you write here and probably at other places of your accusations against us Catholic will then be jused against you on that terrible day.
Out of my love for Christ, I will pray for you.

Of course she was his mother, but why is the bible calling here "mother" good reason to call her mother of God?? You seem to have forgotten the point completely. Can't you see that is just spin, made up after tha fact in order to attempt explanation of something that isn't true?

I dealt with this. Jesus is fully God. He is not half god, or one-third god. God, in all His fullness, died for our sins. It was not a demigod who died for our sins. So if Mary is the mother of Jesus then she would be the mother of God.

There is something very much amiss here, so with that, and after a few more comments not having to do with the rest of your post, I think I'll leave it with you. All I ask is you look at what I/we did comment here and elsewhere, and see your explanations far from do as to think they do.

I already covered why Mary would be the mother of God in the introduction to this thread. You have shown that you did not read it. I cannot help you but pray for you.

You might as well not post here anymore. I will just skip your post. I only write this now for the benefit of others.

 

[packermann]

"The mother of God" sounds very wrong to me. I believe because when NT uses the word God it's always the Father (at least in the Gospels).

In John 20:28, Thomas referred to Jesus as"My Lord and my God".

Also the Son was before being born. We, not even our souls existed before creation, God did.

Mary was not the creator of Jesus. Only His body came from Mary. For all of us, only our bodies came from our mothers' wombs. Our souls came directly from God the Father at conception. Jesus' soul also came from the Father, but His soul came eternally from the Father.

How God creates our souls, I believe is through the mother and father. In the case of the Son it"s different. Jesus allready had his personality before being born, I believe.

You are getting into the mystery of the Incarnation. The Son of God was eternally begotten of the Father. He is the Word of God from the beginning and is actually God. I am not sure what what He has could be called a personality. God does not have a personality. He consists of three Personalities.

The following is my own opinion, not necessarily the teaching of the Catholic Church. Having a personality is having tempraments. God is pure will. He does not have a personality - of being introverted or extroverted, of being crabby or easy-going, etc. But by God the Son becoming man, He did receive a personality. Biology teaches us that our personalities are influenced by heredity and the environment. Jesus inherited Mary's personality, more than anyone inherited his personality from his mother, since Jesus did not have a biological father. He had her characteristics - both physically and emotionally. When we see the the eyes of Mary, they will be strikingly similar to the eyes of Jesus. This is what it means that Jesus was truly God AND truly Man. But God did not leave this to chance. He predestined her to be just right - to give Him the exact characteristics that reflects His glory and reflects His sinless nature. That means that her mother would had to have been molded immaculately.

Great post. I enjoyed responding to this. You seem to be seeking to think things out.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I think the burden of proof is always on those who make the original claim so, citation please?

Catechism Of The Catholic Church, 966- "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.

Will you enlighten us?

Mediatrix - Wikipedia

Separate and apart from that...

Catechism Of The Catholic Church, 967- By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)510 of the Church.

968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

And you have?

Not lately, no.

As to no one batting an eye at asking our mother to pray for us, the reason they lose their minds (a clear overstatemen) if one asks Mary to pray for us is simple, why pray to someone who is dead?

Because they're more alive than we are? Because God is the God of the living, not the dead? Because death is no barrier to communion?

Catechism Of The Catholic Church, 954- The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.493
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495

957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:

We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501

Makes perfect sense to a non Catholic

I know it does.

yet you seem to want to make it appear we are crazy,

Not crazy. Never crazy. But certainly not in possession of a complete and fully-formed understanding of Catholic teaching.

Don't you think you were being a bit deceitful there?

Nah.

And if so, why the need to do so?

Because exaggeration is one of the foundations of humor? I mean, you do understand the concept of a meme, yes?

 

[JacksBratt]

Never said I was anything special


Anyhoo, now that you've got that off your chest, let me try once again.

If you are having a discussion with say,,,,,, another non-Catholic on a certain Scripture passage, and you both claim being under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in your
understanding/interpretation of said passage, and the two you disagree in your understanding of what it means. By who's or what authority will the two of you turn, to determine which of you is in error or which of you is not?

Thank you

Probably, in the case where we are both using different interpretations of the scripture... we will agree to disagree. Happens all the time.

I am certainly not going to say "well, so and so, in the 5th century stated that x and y.... or Guy X stated in a book called ZZZZ that something is fact....

My point is.... It's not that you are Catholic.... it's not that the view or concept is "Catholic"... It's that the concept is not backed up by scripture...

That's what I meant when I stated that "you're not special".. It's not anything against you or your denomination.... It's simply an argument against that which is not scriptural.

 

[JacksBratt]

.

 

[thecolorsblend]

It's that the concept is not backed up by scripture

I understand that in the Protestant world, this is considered a bulletproof rejoinder. But this objection is rather meaningless to Catholics. We do not require that a given doctrine be adduced from Sacred Scripture. If it can be, that's fine. But if it can't be, that by itself is not a barrier to belief.

Frankly, we are hardly unique in that regard. I do think traditional Christians should get credit for their honesty. Many Protestant communities adhere to doctrines with, at best, shaky support from the scriptures which they claim as their sole authority.

 

[Kenny'sID]

That is my own, which shows that we Catholics do not just parrot what the Catholic Church tells us.



God was here long before Mary, the Trinity was here long before Mary. But Jesus's body did not exist before Mary. She only gave birth to His body. But that is enough to be His mother for two reasons:

1, For all of us, our mothers only gave birth to our bodies. Our souls came directly from God.

2. The Bible calls Mary Jesus' mother. That is good enough for me.

So Mary only gave birth to Son of God's physical body. And that is enough for her to be to be called His mother.



I must admit that I almost felt bad about saying you disrespected Mary, and ultimately Jesus. But the insults just keep coming. First, you accused me of idolatry. Now what is worse - being accused of idolatry or disrespecting Mary and even Jesus. I would think be accused of idolatry at first. And yet you far more upset than me about you accusation than I jhave lof yours. And now you accuse me and all Catholics to be deliberately deceptive.

I must warn you. The Catholic teaches what is called the "invincibility of ignorance". If one rejects the Catholic teaching purely on intellectual grounds then God will have mercy on on judgment day. This is why we try not to judge our Protestant brothers and sisters. I know that many Protestants sincerely to not believe Catholic dogma. God will have mercy on them. They have a love for God and love for the truth. They just cannot see what the Church teaches is true.

Be careful, my friend. All your insults and refusal to even look at my arguments fairly does not bode well for you. You better hope with all your might that the Catholic Faith is not the true faith. If it turn out on the Judgment Day that it is true, then you could be in a world of trouble. All you write here and probably at other places of your accusations against us Catholic will then be jused against you on that terrible day.
Out of my love for Christ, I will pray for you.


I dealt with this. Jesus is fully God. He is not half god, or one-third god. God, in all His fullness, died for our sins. It was not a demigod who died for our sins. So if Mary is the mother of Jesus then she would be the mother of God.



I already covered why Mary would be the mother of God in the introduction to this thread. You have shown that you did not read it. I cannot help you but pray for you.

You might as well not post here anymore. I will just skip your post. I only write this now for the benefit of others.

I read it but it didn't work...at all....pretty sure I conveyed that

I see no more sensible defense in this post than I did the prior, so like I said, I'll leave it with you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Catechism Of The Catholic Church, 966- "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.

How do we know that is a fact if it's not scriptural?

All you have there is something someone wrote, and no biblical basis for it being a fact? See, I know little about how you all come up with your truths, but I'm starting to see now....they are simply made up. That is unless you can show me otherwise, and I'll be happy to take a look at it.

Separate and apart from that...

No scripture there either?

Not lately, no.

Because they're more alive than we are? Because God is the God of the living, not the dead? Because death is no barrier to communion?

Yet, as far as I know, the bible doesn't teach Mary is any less dead, and awaiting to be taken from her grave at the return of Christ, than the rest of us.

Again, I'll need biblical proof, or do you feel Catholic writings supersede scripture? If so, that explains so much.

Not crazy. Never crazy. But certainly not in possession of a complete and fully-formed understanding of Catholic teaching.

I now see that charge was petty compared to what I'm seeing here , so no more comment on your insinuation.

Because exaggeration is one of the foundations of humor? I

Again, so many bigger fish to fry here.

When I asked for citation, turns out I wrongly assumed you'd be citing scripture to back your claims. Please just tell me you cannot do that, then I'll know all I need too.

You do realize any one of us can sit down and write something completely off the wall, and add it as an extension to the bible, but we don't, and for very good reason.

 

[zoidar]

In John 20:28, Thomas referred to Jesus as"My Lord and my God".



Mary was not the creator of Jesus. Only His body came from Mary. For all of us, only our bodies came from our mothers' wombs. Our souls came directly from God the Father at conception. Jesus' soul also came from the Father, but His soul came eternally from the Father.



You are getting into the mystery of the Incarnation. The Son of God was eternally begotten of the Father. He is the Word of God from the beginning and is actually God. I am not sure what what He has could be called a personality. God does not have a personality. He consists of three Personalities.

The following is my own opinion, not necessarily the teaching of the Catholic Church. Having a personality is having tempraments. God is pure will. He does not have a personality - of being introverted or extroverted, of being crabby or easy-going, etc. But by God the Son becoming man, He did receive a personality. Biology teaches us that our personalities are influenced by heredity and the environment. Jesus inherited Mary's personality, more than anyone inherited his personality from his mother, since Jesus did not have a biological father. He had her characteristics - both physically and emotionally. When we see the the eyes of Mary, they will be strikingly similar to the eyes of Jesus. This is what it means that Jesus was truly God AND truly Man. But God did not leave this to chance. He predestined her to be just right - to give Him the exact characteristics that reflects His glory and reflects His sinless nature. That means that her mother would had to have been molded immaculately.

Great post. I enjoyed responding to this. You seem to be seeking to think things out.

Don't you think both the Father and the Holy Spirit have a personality?

 

[thecolorsblend]

How do we know that is a fact if it's not scriptural?

All you have there is something someone wrote, and no biblical basis for it being a fact?

No scripture there either?

Yet, as far as I know, the bible doesn't teach Mary is any less dead

Again, I'll need biblical proof, or do you feel Catholic writings supersede scripture? If so, that explains so much.

When I asked for citation, turns out I wrongly assumed you'd be citing scripture to back your claims.

Each of these comments seem to assume that I am attempting to persuade you. With respect and fellowship, I couldn't care less what you believe. Believe whatever you like. It's no skin off my nose.

What I want is to inform others of what Catholics believe and what the Catholic Church teaches. What they do with that is their responsibility.

I have had the most success with evangelizing Protestants by simply giving them the facts of what the Catholic Church has taught over the centuries and allowing the chips to fall where they may.

 

[JacksBratt]

I understand that in the Protestant world, this is considered a bulletproof rejoinder. But this objection is rather meaningless to Catholics. We do not require that a given doctrine be adduced from Sacred Scripture. If it can be, that's fine. But if it can't be, that by itself is not a barrier to belief.

Does this translate into "we don't necessarily need scripture to back up our concept about something biblical"?

Frankly, we are hardly unique in that regard. I do think traditional Christians should get credit for their honesty. Many Protestant communities adhere to doctrines with, at best, shaky support from the scriptures which they claim as their sole authority.

Can you give me a couple of examples of a protestant doctrine that has shaky support from scripture?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Does this translate into "we don't necessarily need scripture to back up our concept about something biblical"?

No. It translates into "we don't necessarily need scripture to back up our concept about something being worthy of belief".

Tbh, I don't know what "biblical" even means.

Can you give me a couple of examples of a protestant doctrine that has shaky support from scripture?

"Sola fide", "sola scriptura", basically anything that pre-millennial dispensationalists believe concerning eschatology and probably other things as well. A lot of Protestants believe in those things. Admittedly, not all Protestants. But then again, there probably is no single doctrine that all Protestants agree on anyway. So hmm.

 

[Fidelibus]

Probably, in the case where we are both using different interpretations of the scripture... we will agree to disagree.

With all due respect, that's not what I asked. I asked if you and another non-Catholic, Bible believing Christian, both claiming to be under the guidence of the Holy Spirit, and disagreed on the meaning or teaching of a certain bible passage, to who or what "authority" could you turn to determine who is in error, and who is not? Now just to say that the two of you would just have to agree to disagree would be your conundrum. You would agree that the Holy Spirit can never, ever be in error, right? So one (or both) of you has to be in error, would you not agree? Again, how are you to determine that? Where could you turn?

Happens all the time.

Unfortunately you are correct, and that's why there are thousands upon of thousands of Protestant denominations and non-denominations that results in just as many individual interpretation of Scripture.

I am certainly not going to say "well, so and so, in the 5th century stated that x and y.... or Guy X stated in a book called ZZZZ that something is fact....

How about the the forth century?

My point is.... It's not that you are Catholic.... it's not that the view or concept is "Catholic"... It's that the concept is not backed up by scripture...

See post #113

That's what I meant when I stated that "you're not special".. It's not anything against you or your denomination.... It's simply an argument against that which is not scriptural.

Again, see post #113.


Thank You