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Fine - I thought I was just responding to your initiatives in your post.
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This is offtopic. Please return to the topic of St. Mary as a Christian Prototype.
1 Corinthians 15 describes an event that occurred ar the passion of our Lord.
It is the belief of traditional Christianity that Christ ministered to those souls in Hades, .
Fine - I thought I was just responding to your initiatives in your post.
I pointed to details "in the text" where Paul clearly shows he is speaking of a future event. You have not responded to those details in the text - so I assume your preference is not to or to do so on some other thread.
That is fine with me.
There were no Protestants until the 1500s.
The idea that there were is a huge error, devised by ill-educated 19th century theologians searching for some kind of antiquity to their faith.
There were two schismatic groups with Protestant-like doctrines: the Waldensians and the Hussites. Both survive until the present.
The Bogomils, Cathari, Albigensians, Paulicians and so on were Gnostics, whose belief systems are repugnant to Nicene Christianity. Strictly speaking, they are not Christians according to the CF.com Statement of Faith.
Protestantism as a movement began when Martin Luther, who was a Catholic, was able to galvanize opposition to the corrupt and incompetent ecclesiastical administration of Leo X.
However, one cannot help but wonder if the improvements and reduction in corruption that followed the Counter Reformation could have happened without the needless bloodshed.
We can either discuss this in another thread or in this thread if we return to a Marian context
And without that "principle" ingrained during the dark ages --
You were in a conversation with someone about "postmortem conversion" -- I did not trace your discussion far enough back to find out how you were connecting that topic to Mary.
True - pretty much all Protestant leaders were in fact Catholic theologians. There were no "protestants" at the start - they were all Catholics. Those Catholic priests and scholars gave Bible studies to their fellow Catholics and called for "reform" called for "protest" against doctrines and practices that did not harmonize with the Bible.
The answer there is simple: because Mary is the mother of God, and all persons were saved by the Incarnation, any persons who died before the passion of our Lord were saved in the Harrowing of Hell.
Now, we really need to get back on topic. Please lets both make sure all of our replies going forward relate to Mary
Indeed so; none of the reformers were Orthodox, which is why the Theotokos remains universally venerated in the Orthodox Church.
Ok - because the Bible does not support that statement you made - so I hope it has nothing to do with your view of Mary.
I find your logic illusive at that point. The priests and theologians were not "orthodox" if they notice an error in the RCC practices or doctrines - "And so Mary remains universally venerated in the Orthodox Church"??
The Bible directly supports it. Jesus Christ is God incarnate,
we are saved through His incarnation (John 1)
and Mary is His Mother, the Mother of the Incarnate God
The Orthodox Church is not the Roman Catholic Church.
The Reformers, Cranmer, Luther, Calvin et al were not Orthodox, they were Roman Catholic, until they left or were excommunicated by Rome.
The sole exception is Wesley, who started out as Anglican but actually converted to Orthodoxy in secret, and was ordained a bishop in the Orthodox Church (thus in a sense, Methodism is a "lost tribe" of Orthodoxy; Wesley's theology of "entire sanctification" is entirely Orthodox and identical with our own Theosis concept).
Thus, in the Orthodox Church, which is the world's second largest denomination (or second and third if one insists on dividing the Eastern and Oriental churches), St. Mary is universally venerated as the Mother of God, and there has never been a "reformation" or a "revival."
That is certainly true. It is a sovereign act of God. So also Christ's death on the cross because it is His act of dying for our sins - paying our debt of sin that saves us. "Showing up" is great - but all for nothing if He does not choose to die for our sins.
We probably both agree on that point.
No text says "we are saved through his incarnation" - Any more than "We are saved because the angels sang to the shepherds in Bethlehem" -- all of these are in the chain of events leading to the cross. And we are thankful for all of them.
No text calls Mary "Mother of Incarnate God" nor "instructor of Incarnate God".
No text calls Joseph "Teacher of God"
No text calls him "Stronger than God... protector of God"
I think we all know most of that already.
The mission and purpose of the mission of Jesus was the reconciliation of God and Humankind. I hope I don't need to provide Bible references for that.
Jesus was, in his very person, wholly divine and wholly human, so indeed in his very being he was the embodiment of his mission here, the reconciliation of God and Man.
That is possible because Mary of her own self will determined that she was prepared to be part of God's plan.
So what is the problem?
‘Here am I, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word.’
That is inaccurate. Certain works are inherently righteousnin that they are in alighment with the uncreated energies of God.
....
not as much as on the Epistle of James, which Luther tried to delete from the Bible
but it is impossible in light of the Gospel of Matthew to say that works play no part in salvation.
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