mary assumption not a early belief?

Lord's Servant

Ave Maria
Jun 20, 2016
466
176
28
Brownsville,Texas USA
✟23,982.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Can someone tell me how do you uphold the belief of the assumption of the Holy Mother of God if it "appears" so late and Epiphanius didn't know about it?


"The Roman Catholic scholar Michael O'Carroll explains that Epiphanius (4th Century), a Church Father, gives the earliest mention of anything concerning the end of Mary's Life when he says regarding Epiphanius' mention of Mary in A.D. 377,

"In a later passage, he [Epiphanius] says that she [Mary] may have died and been buried, or been killed--as a martyr. 'Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and he can do whatever he desires; for her end no one knows.'"

In light of this evidence, it is obvious that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Assumption of Mary has no early attestation. In fact, the first reasonable mention, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is found in St. John Damascene who lived in the 700's. This is a blatantly obvious historical (not to mention biblical) vacuum concerning Mary's Assumption. Obviously, such a dogma, such an all-important essential of the Christian church, would have been mentioned by at least some of the Church Fathers."
 

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟60,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am definitely not the spokesperson for the dogmas of the Church. Personally, whether Mary was assumed into heaven or not at her death does not matter to me. It is not essential to my faith. It does not appear to have been essential to the faith of Christians for a long, long time, as you point out. To me it is something for theologians to argue about. So I will let others defend it.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,779.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Munificentissimus Deus (November 1, 1950) | PIUS XII

45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,162
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Can someone tell me how do you uphold the belief of the assumption of the Holy Mother of God if it "appears" so late and Epiphanius didn't know about it?
I would go and find a first class relic of Mary, some bone or something like that, and pray near it until it became clearer. Let me know how that works out.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,742
2,553
PA
✟271,779.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Can someone tell me how do you uphold the belief of the assumption of the Holy Mother of God if it "appears" so late and Epiphanius didn't know about it?


"The Roman Catholic scholar Michael O'Carroll explains that Epiphanius (4th Century), a Church Father, gives the earliest mention of anything concerning the end of Mary's Life when he says regarding Epiphanius' mention of Mary in A.D. 377,

"In a later passage, he [Epiphanius] says that she [Mary] may have died and been buried, or been killed--as a martyr. 'Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and he can do whatever he desires; for her end no one knows.'"

In light of this evidence, it is obvious that the Roman Catholic dogma of the Assumption of Mary has no early attestation. In fact, the first reasonable mention, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is found in St. John Damascene who lived in the 700's. This is a blatantly obvious historical (not to mention biblical) vacuum concerning Mary's Assumption. Obviously, such a dogma, such an all-important essential of the Christian church, would have been mentioned by at least some of the Church Fathers."

...and the Nature of Christ, the Trinity, and "Mary as the Mother of God" were argued about by early Christians until it was defined by the Councils of the Church. Much of this stuff wasn't put to bed until well into the 400's. Many non Catholics believe Church Dogma on the Nature of Christ, the Trinity, Mary Mother of God but not on the Assumption.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rhamiel
Upvote 0

Lord's Servant

Ave Maria
Jun 20, 2016
466
176
28
Brownsville,Texas USA
✟23,982.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
I would go and find a first class relic of Mary, some bone or something like that, and pray near it until it became clearer. Let me know how that works out.
But there are no relics of the Holy Mother Of God And I'm not denying she was assumed bodily into heaven I'm just questioning why Epiphanius didnt know about it or why didn't some church leaders didn't mentioned it at least?
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Mary suffered a temporal death. (Sent. communior.)

Even if reliable historical reports as to the place (Ephesus, Jerusalem), the time, and the circumstances of Mary’s death are lacking, still the fact of her death is almost generally accepted by the Fathers and Theologians, and is expressly affirmed in the Liturgy of the Church.

The Sacramentarium Gregorianum, which Pope Hadrian I transmitted to Charles the Great (784/ 91), contains the prayer: Veneranda nobis, Domine, huius est diei festi vitas, in qua sancta Dei Genitrix mortem subiit temporalem, nec tamen mortis nexibus deprimi potuit quae Filium tuum Dominum nostrum de se genuit incarnatum. The “Oratio super oblata” of the same Sacramentary reads: Subveniat, Domine, plebi tuae Dei Genitricis oratio, quam etsi pro condicione carnis migrasse cognoscimus in caelesti gloria apud te pro nobis intercedere sentiamus. Origen (In Ioan 2, 12; fragm. 31), St. Ephrem (Hymnus 15, 2), Severian of Gabala (De mundi creatione or. 6, 10)

St. Jerome (Adv. Rut. 11, 5). St. Augustine (In Ioan tr. 8, 9) mention the fact of her death incidentally St. Epiphanius, who had already instituted researches into the close of Mary’s life says: “Nobody knows how she departed this world.” He leaves undecided whether she died a natural death, or whether (according to Luke 2, 35) she died by violence, or whether she (cf. Apoc. 12, 14) still lives on immortal in some place unknown to us (Haer 78, 11. 24). The unknown author of a sermon which has come down to us under the name of the Presbyte Timotheus of Jerusalem (6th-8th cent.) is of the opinion that “the virgin is up to now immortal (that is, did not die), as He who (in her) lived, translated her into the place of reception (that is, into the Heavenly Paradise)” (Or. in Symeonem).

For Mary, death, in consequence of her freedom from original sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin (cf. D 1073). However, it seems fitting that Mary’s body, which was by nature mortal, should be, in conformity with that of her Divine Son, subject to the general law of death.

Ott, Ludwig. Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Kindle Locations 5971-5987). The Mercier Press. Kindle Edition.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
576. The Assumption.

The last matter that we hall notice is the mystery of the Assumption of our Lady. Nothing more strongly indicates the deep conviction of the Christian people that peculiar privileges might be looked for in the case of the Mother of God, than the doubt felt at one time whether she ever died. Even so learned a man as St. Epiphanius, writing about the year 400, hesitates to speak positively: "I cannot say that she is immortal, I cannot feel sure that she is dead." (Haer. 78, n. 11; P.G. 42, 716.) The existence of the doubt at least proves that no relics of her sacred body were known to exist; but the doubt itself was groundless, for it has no positive basis, and it is against all analogy that the Mother should be allowed a privilege which the Son did not take to Himself. There can be no question, therefore, but that the Blessed Virgin died, yet nothing whatever is known as to the date or place of her death; there are divers traditions, none, however, having much authority.

Hunter, Sylvester Joseph. OUTLINES OF DOGMATIC THEOLOGY: (Complete in Three Volumes) (p. 538). Lex De Leon Publishing. Kindle Edition.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
§ 215.— Mary's Death, Incorruptibility, and Assumption into Heaven.


II. That Mary underwent death is a universal belief in the Church. Yet her death is less certain than her glorification. For this latter admits of positive proof from revelation, whereas the former cannot be proved convincingly either from history or revelation. In fact, the law of death as revealed only punishes fallen mankind; but Mary was exempted from original sin, therefore also from its penalty, death. Again, her death cannot be proved as a consequence of her mortal nature, for in her case the claim of nature is superseded by a supernatural claim to immortality. The same would have been true of Adam, had he not sinned. Mary's claim to a life unbroken by death rests upon her Divine Motherhood; but as she is the Mother of Him who died for us, it was fitting that she should die also, lest her and her Son's human natures should be thought unreal, and the Mother privileged above the Son. Mary, then, died because Jesus died; but her death was not necessarily the effect of violence— it being undergone neither as an expiation or penalty, nor as the effect of disease from which, like Jesus, she was exempt. Since the Middle Ages the view prevails that she died of Love, her great desire to be united to her Son either dissolving the ties of body and soul, or prevailing on God to dissolve them. Her "passing away" is a sacrifice of Love completing the dolorous sacrifice of her life; it is the death in the kiss of the Lord (in osculo Domini), of which the just die.

Scheeben, Matthias Joseph. A MANUAL OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY: Based on Dogmatik (Complete in Two Volumes) (Kindle Locations 11263-11278). Lex De Leon Publishing. Kindle Edition.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
All of this was known and taught before or near the time of Epiphanius. Often things are not written about alot until people question them. So we do not see it alot until Epiphanius and he was trying to settle the question of do we know if and how she died. But before that her life was indeed examined and was very important to some like Sextus Julius Africanus in 200 ad in setting the birth of Christ and other early work on the Annunciation.

You get explosions of active times in writings about some issues. This is usually when those issues are questioned. But you have images, popular piety and related issues that show an existing belief not testified to by direct writing that are shown by history and related beliefs like Africanus and his chronology.
 
Upvote 0

Lord's Servant

Ave Maria
Jun 20, 2016
466
176
28
Brownsville,Texas USA
✟23,982.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
All of this was known and taught before or near the time of Epiphanius. Often things are not written about alot until people question them. So we do not see it alot until Epiphanius and he was trying to settle the question of do we know if and how she died. But before that her life was indeed examined and was very important to some like Sextus Julius Africanus in 200 ad in setting the birth of Christ and other early work on the Annunciation.

You get explosions of active times in writings about some issues. This is usually when those issues are questioned. But you have images, popular piety and related issues that show an existing belief not testified to by direct writing that are shown by history and related beliefs like Africanus and his chronology.

Ah I see then so it was not written about because people were not questioning it correct? And epiphanius was just trying to settle the question of "did she died or did she not ?"
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,162
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
But there are no relics of the Holy Mother Of God
That was my point. There are zillions of relics of the apostles but nobody bothered to preserve or find or cook up any relics of Mary. Why not, unless there was no available body and everybody knew there was no available body. I conclude that it must have been common knowledge at the time that there was no available body. It's a backdoor argument for the Assumption, but it works for me.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Ah I see then so it was not written about because people were not questioning it correct? And epiphanius was just trying to settle the question of "did she died or did she not ?"

Essentially. Yep. You often see issues rise up in volume of writings when they are defended. Until then you don't see it much. And at times there is a disagreement on some issues where some said she died other that she did not, that her time on earth was merely over. The vast consensus of ancient sources is that she died. But it is that context that Epiphanius was speaking.
 
Upvote 0

Lord's Servant

Ave Maria
Jun 20, 2016
466
176
28
Brownsville,Texas USA
✟23,982.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
That was my point. There are zillions of relics of the apostles but nobody bothered to preserve or find or cook up any relics of Mary. Why not, unless there was no available body and everybody knew there was no available body. I conclude that it must have been common knowledge at the time that there was no available body. It's a backdoor argument for the Assumption, but it works for me.
That's a good argument because we don't have the Mary's body and if she wasn't assume into heaven we would have her body but we don't
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,162
16,006
Flyoverland
✟1,223,635.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
That's a good argument because we don't have the Mary's body and if she wasn't assume into heaven we would have her body but we don't
But the additional part is that nobody even claims to have a relic because everybody knows there will be no relics. An unscrupulous relic hawker, and there have been those sorts of people, might easily claim to have a first class relic of Mary. But it would be unprofitable because nobody would be buying what they would see as an obvious forgery. Seems like people knew there was no body. So it's not just that there is no evidence of a body, but that there isn't even fake news of a body. Not having the body of Mary was just considered normal. Having the body of all of the apostles was considered normal, so relics were available.

This is an argument from silence, but in this case the silence of absolutely no relics of Mary, when the opposite would have been expected, speaks loudly to me.
 
Upvote 0

Lord's Servant

Ave Maria
Jun 20, 2016
466
176
28
Brownsville,Texas USA
✟23,982.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Hmmmm that's true because the Catholic,Orthodox and Coptics would love to have her relics in their churches but they don't have it because no one found her relics and no one tried to say we have her relics because they aren't any because she's in heaven
 
Upvote 0

Rhamiel

Member of the Round Table
Nov 11, 2006
41,182
9,432
ohio
✟241,111.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Revelation 11:19
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

next verse
Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
Hmmmm that's true because the Catholic,Orthodox and Coptics would love to have her relics in their churches but they don't have it because no one found her relics and no one tried to say we have her relics because they aren't any because she's in heaven
Question to all belonging in said churches: Do you think that if you had her relics, veneration of them would go way too far?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,504
55,189
Woods
✟4,584,195.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
With some, I think so. Absolutely.
Question to all belonging in said churches: Do you think that if you had her relics, veneration of them would go way too far?
 
Upvote 0