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tampasteve

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Reverence, most definitely. Pray to...no, Lutherans do not in the same way that a Roman Catholic would. One might find some early references to praying to the saints, but over time even Luther advised against it. From the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions:
yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one?
 
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FaithT

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Reverence, most definitely. Pray to...no, Lutherans do not in the same way that a Roman Catholic would. One might find some early references to praying to the saints, but over time even Luther advised against it. From the Apology to the Augsburg Confessions:
Where did Catholics get the idea of doing it and strongly encouraging it?
 
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tampasteve

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Why did Luther eventually advise against it?
Luther's views on things evolved over time. Initially he was OK with the idea of a Pope as well, among other beliefs. Basically initially a lot of the early Lutheran writings and practices were still fully entrenched in mediaeval Roman Catholic practices, but time and study of the scriptures changed them.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Where did Catholics get the idea of doing it and strongly encouraging it?

Prayer to the saints and angels was practiced fairly early on. RC, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all continue with prayers to the saints.

Shepherd of Hermas, ~90AD-150AD (Shepherd of Hermas was considered to be Scripture by some early church authorities)
I prayed [to the Angel of Repentance, who is called the Shepherd] much that he would explain to me the similitude of the field…

Hippolytus of Rome, ~200-210AD
Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.
 
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tampasteve

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Prayer to the saints and angels was practiced fairly early on. RC, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all continue with prayers to the saints.

Shepherd of Hermas, ~90AD-150AD (Shepherd of Hermas was considered to be Scripture by some early church authorities)
I prayed [to the Angel of Repentance, who is called the Shepherd] much that he would explain to me the similitude of the field…

Hippolytus of Rome, ~200-210AD
Tell me, you three boys, remember me, I entreat you, that I also may obtain the same lot of martyrdom with you, who was the fourth person with you who was walking in the midst of the furnace and who was hymning to God with you as from one mouth? Describe to us his form and beauty so that we also, seeing him in the flesh, may recognize him.
But it is not a Lutheran practice, and not theologically sound according to the Lutheran teachings. While the RCC and EO churches may continue to do it, and I will not judge them for so by any means, it is not Lutheran. And the Shepherd is not scripture, by any church that I am aware of. There is a lot of great teachings in the ECF, but we cannot consider is scripture.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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But it is not a Lutheran practice, and not theologically sound according to the Lutheran teachings. While the RCC and EO churches may continue to do it, and I will not judge them for so by any means, it is not Lutheran. And the Shepherd is not scripture, by any church that I am aware of. There is a lot of great teachings in the ECF, but we cannot consider is scripture.

I'm not here to debate or anything as I am a guest. I was simply providing information that prayer to the saints shows up within the first few centuries of Christianity. It is not just a RCC practice.
 
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tampasteve

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I'm not here to debate or anything as I am a guest. I was simply providing information that prayer to the saints shows up within the first few centuries of Christianity. It is not just a RCC practice.
Good points, many (all?) of the Apostolic church's continue the practice. Whether that makes it theologically sound is another matter.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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What and which are Apostolic churches?

Generally the term Apostolic church refers to those churches that can trace their bishops back to one of the Apostles or to the Apostolic era.

The Catholic Communion is a grouping of 22 churches the biggest of which is simply known as the Roman Catholic Church. There are smaller churches within this group such as the Maronite, Melkite (Lebanese), Ukrainian Greek Catholic (Ukraine), that follow different liturgical traditions, but simply arent well known or have a large presence in the US. FYI, the Lutheran Ukrainian Church is a Lutheran church associated with the Wisconsin Synod that uses a Lutheran version of the main eastern liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Eastern Orthodox come out of Eastern Europe, Greece, Turkey, Russia, etc. The Patriarch of Constantinople can trace his heritage to St. Andrew. It is the second largest Christian body with around 250 million adherents. The EO and Rome split in 1054 over a variety of issues.

Oriental Orthodox are from Egypt, Syria, Ethiopia, India and Armenia and trace their heritage back to St. Mark. Best known are the Coptic or Egyptian Orthodox church. They have a slightly different Christology and separated from the rest of Christianity in the 5th century but are still recognized as fully Christian.
 
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tampasteve

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To add to what GreekOrthodox said, sometimes the Church of the East are added to the grouping as well as the Anglican Church. Although, the Anglican church is a bit more controversial if they should be a part of the listing or not. I tend to lean "yes", but it's not something I would hold a hill for.
 
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Daniel9v9

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What and which are Apostolic churches?

If I can cut in here, I'd like to mention that the doctrine of Apostolicity is understood differently in different church bodies. What's being talked about above is the doctrine of Apostolic Succession which belongs to the theological frameworks of the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Anglican, broadly speaking.

Parts of the Lutheran Church has Apostolic Succession, but this is not what it means to be Apostolic according to our doctrine. That is, when we confess in the Creed that we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church, the Church is called Apostolic not because of succession or transmission of divinely instituted authority - but rather because it’s built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone. It’s also Apostolic given its doctrinal and historical connection with the Apostles, and that it continually sets forth the doctrine of the Apostles, remains steadfast in the teachings, and carries the Apostolic mission of preaching the Gospel to the whole world.

In simple terms: The more accurately a church body proclaims the Gospel, in equal proportion it is Apostolic. Or to put it a different way - it's quite possible for a church body to have Apostolic Succession, but no Gospel, which does not make them Apostolic.

We believe and teach that the true catholic and apostolic Church is wherever the Gospel is rightly preached, and the Sacraments rightly administered.
 
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tampasteve

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If I can cut in here, I'd like to mention that the doctrine of Apostolicity is understood differently in different church bodies. What's being talked about above is the doctrine of Apostolic Succession which belongs to the theological frameworks of the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Anglican, broadly speaking.

Parts of the Lutheran Church has Apostolic Succession, but this is not what it means to be Apostolic according to our doctrine. That is, when we confess in the Creed that we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church, the Church is called Apostolic not because of succession or transmission of divinely instituted authority - but rather because it’s built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone. It’s also Apostolic given its doctrinal and historical connection with the Apostles, and that it continually sets forth the doctrine of the Apostles, remains steadfast in the teachings, and carries the Apostolic mission of preaching the Gospel to the whole world.

In simple terms: The more accurately a church body proclaims the Gospel, in equal proportion it is Apostolic. Or to put it a different way - it's quite possible for a church body to have Apostolic Succession, but no Gospel, which does not make them Apostolic.

We believe and teach that the true catholic and apostolic Church is wherever the Gospel is rightly preached, and the Sacraments rightly administered.


While that is all accurate, what is/was being talked about was my mention of the term "Apostolic Churches", not really the doctrine of Apostolicity. A church may have valid Apostolic Succession (or possibly invalid, but that is another conversation) and also not be considered an "Apostolic Church". "Apostolic Church" can be thought of as a category of churches in a broader theological parlance.
 
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Daniel9v9

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While that is all accurate, what is/was being talked about was my mention of the term "Apostolic Churches", not really the doctrine of Apostolicity. A church may have valid Apostolic Succession (or possibly invalid, but that is another conversation) and also not be considered an "Apostolic Church". "Apostolic Church" can be thought of as a category of churches in a broader theological parlance.

Sure, but my point is that it can be good to qualify "Apostolic Church" as it can mean different things to different church bodies, and I just wanted to explain the Lutheran usage.
 
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Maybe we should call them self-proclaimed apostolic churches. As can be seen in this and other threads in which Hope1960 inquires about some practice or belief she knows from her time in the Roman-Catholic church, that church as well as the Orthodox church have practices in their tradition which they regard as being of apostolic origin but which the reformers put into question as they were in contradiction to the only authoritative source of apostolic teaching: Holy Scriptures. The norma normans - the norming norm - on which tradition and practice is to be measured and judged. Praying to saints - how ever ancient it is - is not only not mentioned in Scriptures but contradicts the biblical teaching that Christ is our only mediator. So therefore the so-called apostolic churches are with regards to this - and many other practices and beliefs - not apostolic.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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While that is all accurate, what is/was being talked about was my mention of the term "Apostolic Churches", not really the doctrine of Apostolicity. A church may have valid Apostolic Succession (or possibly invalid, but that is another conversation) and also not be considered an "Apostolic Church". "Apostolic Church" can be thought of as a category of churches in a broader theological parlance.

Thank you Steve as I know you and I have similar points of view on things.

Personally, I try to have a neutral take and historical tone in my posts, especially when I participate in another group's forum. For example, few things drive me crazier than Roman Catholics who claim that the RCC declared the Biblical canon for ALL Christianity and completely ignore that the EO and OO have our own unique canons.
 
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FaithT

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Thank you Steve as I know you and I have similar points of view on things.

Personally, I try to have a neutral take and historical tone in my posts, especially when I participate in another group's forum. For example, few things drive me crazier than Roman Catholics who claim that the RCC declared the Biblical canon for ALL Christianity and completely ignore that the EO and OO have our own unique canons.
And the RCC posters in forums like CAF, insist they are the church with a direct line to Christ. Which may be true or not. I don’t know, but they act as though no other church, no other beliefs are valid.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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And the RCC posters in forums like CAF, insist they are the church with a direct line to Christ. Which may be true or not. I don’t know, but they act as though no other church, no other beliefs are valid.

From Saturday Night Live: John Laroquette dies and gets to ask his guardian angel (Dana Carvey) all the questions. His final question is, "Does God have a favorite religion?" See the SHOCKING result at the 5:15 mark (as they get up to walk away)

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/riddles-of-the-universe/n9580
 
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