Mary and Christ in the Quran

[berean_315]

Sauron wrote:

You also say, "in resorting to using the work of a cult"... but you do not know why Al-Khadi used the JW translation.  Neither do I, for that matter. But your tone and attitude indicate that you believe he did it on purpose. But for all you know, it might have been the only bible he had handy.  You might want to check your attitude, and avoid jumping to conclusions here about someone else's motivations.



Well let's see what Al-Khadi says in the preface of the book.

"I therefore set about purchasing many different versions of the Bible such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the King James Version (KJV or Authorized version), and so forth. I also purchased many Christian Biblical references as well as some Islamic references..."

The picture you try to paint by your statement above is totally false. You might want to check you attitude, and avoid jumping to conclusions. Just a thought.

berean_315

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Also salvation in Islam is earned through belief, but also through righteous deeds such as charity, helping the weak, etc.

Well, this will probably end badly, but no matter...

Cathlolics believe the same...faith and works. Without works, faith is dead...(see James)

Anyway, I opened a Koran this weekend in the bookstore, just out of curiousty. The very first thing that I turned to was "Thou shalt not put other God's before me"...hmmm, coincedence?

They are the same GOD people...the Muslims are wrong to deny Jesus is God, but do you really think our loving God will punish them for honest mistakes? And vice-versa from their perspective...

Praise be to God, Our Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Brian45


 

You must think I'm a sucker  ,  I'm not going to open the devils book and read it's satanic verses  .

There were christians who welcomed you to this forum ,  and by doing so ,  they also welcome a false prophet  ,  a false God  ,  and a false doctrine  .

Maybe you should aim your preaching at them  ,  they seem like nice soft targets  ,  ready to bend any which way  .

I'm one of the moderators who welcomed Zico to the forum. It was an act of courtesty from one human being to another.
And Brian, I've never been nice and soft target.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by berean_315
Sauron wrote:

That's nice. However the website author(s), like yourself, are unable to speak for what muslims think. 

Please take your own advice. You yourself have stated you are not Muslim.

However, I have studied Islam for years.  I have a degree in Arabic lang and lit, as well as a 2nd degree in Middle East affairs.  And I have also asked Muslims directly, and researched issues using their on commentaries.

None of which these website authors can say.  Nor can you, I'd wager.

In actuality, what he is doing is simply saying that the Trinity, as defined by christians, is a logical impossibility.  Therefore, the only remaining answer is that for the christians, "god is three gods merged into one". 


The title of the column in the table I am referring to is titled "Christian belief" and there is a second column entitled "Muslim Belief". Al-Khadi is correct on some of the other beliefs that Christians hold, but not what Christains believe about God. How come he is correct when he says that Jesus is the second member of the Triune God under "Christian Belief" column even though Muslims do not believe this? What he has written is not the Christian belief about God. It is the Muslim interpretaion of the Christian belief about God. Please check what you're talking about before you make statements that are not correct.

That's interesting.  What makes you think I did not check it, Berean?

And I have already explained why he does this.  He is processing the logical impossiblity of the christian trinity doctrine, in the best way that he can.    Moreover, you are not quoting the entire text that Al-Khadi wrote - why is that?  When viewing that entire text, it becomes clear that he does understand the christian position, but is (apparently) having problems resolving it with language that makes any sense.  Here it is:

God is three gods merged into one God. This one God is called a Trinity. However, to say that God is three is a blasphemy of the highest order. All three parts of the Trinity are "coequal" "co-eternal" and "the same substance." For this reason, this doctrine is described as "a mystery."

When viewing the bolded text, it becomes obvious that he does understand the concept, but is struggling to find a word to describe the individual members of the Trinity.

In short - you are perceiving foul play here, where none has actually occurred.  Cool your jets. 

From the viewpoint of islam, christianity is a rebellious cult.  Therefore criticisms of islam which come from christians can be immediately discounted.  Right?

True. We can see that with the responses from Zico as well as myself and other Christains. Coming to a Christian discussion board and quoting often from the Qur'an serves no purpose since Christians do not believe it is from God. 

So is that the end of the discussion?  If so, why bother?

You also say, "in resorting to using the work of a cult"... but you do not know why Al-Khadi used the JW translation.  Neither do I, for that matter. But your tone and attitude indicate that you believe he did it on purpose. But for all you know, it might have been the only bible he had handy.  You might want to check your attitude, and avoid jumping to conclusions here about someone else's motivations.

The goal of the book is to show that the Gospel of Jesus underwent major revisions and alterations and Al-Khadi states, "...you would be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who, to one degree or another, does not readily acknowledge this as a true accepted fact." This is a false statement.

Again, you selectively quote what he says.  When the full text is viewed, it becomes obvious that he is talking about redactions in text, manuscript edits, etc. that have occurred over time, as well as issues such as the Q text, the kergyma, etc. All but the most conservative christian scholars admit to this as well (i.e., they do not believe in the infallibility of scripture).   Although they would not admit it to the same degree as what Al-Khadi seems to be implying here:

The goal of this book is simple: To exhibit considerable tangible evidence that the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) underwent a series of major revisions and alterations after his departure to the point that his original message to mankind was all but totally lost. Six hundred years later (Fourteen hundred years ago), the holy book of the Muslims, the Qur'an, was sent down upon the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by God informing him of this fact. It has taken close to two thousand years for Christianity to recognize this as a known fact. Today, you would be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who, to one degree or another, does not readily acknowledge this as a true accepted fact (A minority of the most adamant conservatives will always be the exception). The evidence is simply too overwhelming to ignore.

Another thing: you complain above that he is grossly overstating his case when he says "you would be hard pressed to find a single reputable christian scholar who doesn't admit that fact".  I think you're confused about what he is referring to here. 

He isn't talking about it being hard to (1) find a christian scholar who admits that the bible has been superseded by the Koran.  He's talking about (2) finding a bible scholar who will admit that the current bible has been edited and passed down in a changed form, when compared to the original text.  How do I know that he is referring to (2), instead of (1)?  Because he says:

It has taken close to two thousand years for Christianity to recognize this as a known fact.

Since the Koran came 600 years after Christ, the math here won't work for (1) at all.  Therefore, he must have meant (2).

If someone is going to write a book to dispute another religion, they should know the pedigree of the sources they are using and acknowledge that they are not seen as credible to a vast majority of people that call themselves Christian otherwise they cannot be taken seriously.

So far, I don't see anything wrong with his sources.  I don't know what the JW translation in particular is for this issue.  But I also haven't seen you enumerate what makes the JW translation for this issue defective, when compared to other translations.

But as for acknowleding that one's sources are not credible to a vast majority of people", that sounds like good advice for anyone using the www.answering-islam.org website.

As noted, you did not take Ben seriously with statements he made that you said were incorrect.

Indeed.  That is because he is sincerely misinformed.  Why should I take his statements for fact?

And by the way, you're making assumptions as well.

About what? 

Your points are taken on the verse I cited and I will look into it further.

Excellent.  Thank you for taking the time to do so.

Of course, you&nbsp;could always <B>do your own first-hand research into Islam, </B>instead of having someone&nbsp;already biased against islam regurgitate arguments for you.&nbsp;

I have done first-hand research into Islam by reading writings from Muslims themselves as well as&nbsp;by Christians. I hope you can take your own advice and acknowledge the fact that Zico is telling&nbsp;us to&nbsp;read something written by someone already biased against Christianity.

I don't read anything by the zealots on either side.&nbsp; I'm more interested in what actual historians and mainstream theologians in both religions have to say, than listening to the shrill claims of mutually exclusive believers.

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by berean_315
Sauron wrote:

You also say, "in resorting to using the work of a cult"... but you do not know why Al-Khadi used the JW translation.&nbsp; Neither do I, for that matter. But your tone and attitude indicate that you believe he did it on purpose. But for all you know, it might have been the only bible he had handy.&nbsp; You might want to check your attitude, and avoid jumping to conclusions here about someone else's motivations.



Well let's see what Al-Khadi says in the preface of the book.

"I therefore set about purchasing many different versions of the Bible such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), the King James Version (KJV or Authorized version), and so forth. I also purchased many Christian Biblical references as well as some Islamic references..."

The picture you try to paint by your statement above is totally false.

Actually, no it isn't.&nbsp; I pointed out that you DO NOT KNOW what his motivation was for using the JW translation.&nbsp; That still remains a fact.&nbsp;

Unless you somehow have figured out why he used that translation - have you done so?

If not, then my statement stands.

I offered a suggestion as to why he might have used it.&nbsp; But I did not offer it as a fact - only as a hypothetical reason why you might not want to jump to conclusions.&nbsp;

Here's the bottom line: you implied he used the JW translation for some hidden or deceitful reason - an implication that you have not, so far, produced any evidence to substantiate.

&nbsp;

You might want to check you attitude, and avoid jumping to conclusions. Just a thought.

My attitude is fine.&nbsp; You have made a mistake, however, if you think you have cleared yourself of the charge of maligning someone's character.&nbsp; You still don't know why he used the JW translation.

 

[Warrior4Jah]

Im feeling very little love in this conversation. My goodness people! As christians it is our duty to feel and love all! Ive seen very little welcoming and love for this man. I saw someone who said that by welcoming him they are welcoming a false prophet, a false God, and a false doctrine. Im sorry but, thats wrong. Thye are doing as the Master Jesus Christ asks us to do. Love all. Im very sorry Zico for the litle love youve been shown so far. Please understand, we are not all like some of these people, I wont say any names.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Blessings and welcome to Christian Forums,Warrior4Jah.

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee


I'm one of the moderators who welcomed Zico to the forum. It was an act of courtesty from one human being to another.
And Brian, I've never been nice and soft target.

&nbsp;

Hi Annabel&nbsp; .&nbsp; I would like to bring to your attention what is written in our bible&nbsp; :

&nbsp;

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,<SUP> 7</SUP>which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.<SUP> 8</SUP>But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.<SUP> 9</SUP>As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
<SUP>10</SUP>For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

 

[Zico]

Hey guys,,

Just would like to thank those who supported my right to be here, and also those who debated for the sake of finding the truth. Thank you all. (if you don't thank people then you don't thank god)


69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


Surah 5:69

 

[Brian45]

For those christians who know little about Islam and the koran , may I suggest you read :

http://thekoran.com/imk/

 

[berean_315]

I offered a suggestion as to why he might have used it.&nbsp; But I did not offer it as a fact - only as a hypothetical reason why you might not want to jump to conclusions...You still don't know why he used the JW translation.

Good try.

Your statement shows you had not even read the preface of the book or you would have not made a statement that is shown by Al-Khadi himself to be in error. You were the one accusing me of jumping to conclusions, but you yourself have done the same. He had many Christian sources. I also know exactly why he used the JW Translation, because the verse he is dicussing has been changed in the New Word Translation and is a common one used by JW in refering to Jesus Christ as "a god'.

&nbsp;

three gods merged into one God.

Again this is not a true statement of what Christians believe. Elsewhere in the book he says that "The Trinity is 1+1+1=1" which again gives a false representation of what Christians believe. It is more like 1x1x1=1.

&nbsp;

The goal of this book is simple: To exhibit considerable tangible evidence that the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) underwent a series of major revisions and alterations after his departure to the point that his original message to mankind was all but totally lost.

you would not be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who would disagree with the above.

berean_315

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Welcome Zico.

Do you believe Jesus is God? If not, why? Please don't quote scripture from the Koran...just give logical reasons.

 

[berean_315]

Just to clarify about the use of the New World Translation:

In&nbsp; reference to John 1:1 the King James Version and other Bibles translate it as:

"...the Word [Jesus] was God."


The New World Translation says:

"...the Word [Jesus] a god."

Al-Khadi does not use the same rendering as the Jehovah's Witnesses of Jesus being "a god", but he uses similar arguments from the Greek as the Jehovah's Witnesses' to support his position that "the Word" [Jesus] is not God and does make reference to the New World Translation. However he comes up a rendering of the verse as:

"...the Word [Jesus] was divine (or something similar. I am quoting from memory).


Al-Khadi doesn't use the the King James or other standard Bible a Christian would use, because it&nbsp;would not support his position.


I have never said that Zico could not say what he wants here on the discussion board. However, the book he made reference to for me to read regards the Christian belief in the very nature of God
and Jesus as false. These are why I made comments. As Zico stated to me "Wake up berean_315".


For Christians who believe in the Trinity I will close with this regarding the sin of "shirk":

"Verily God does not forgive the ascribing of divinity to anything beside Him, although He forgives any lesser sin to whomever He wills: for he who ascribes divinity to anything beside God has indeed contrived an awesome sin." [4:48]

"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (Qur'an 5:72-73; Abudullah Yusuf Ali)

&nbsp;

"…I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)


berean_315

 

[Sauron]

Originally posted by berean_315
I offered a suggestion as to why he might have used it.&nbsp; But I did not offer it as a fact - only as a hypothetical reason why you might not want to jump to conclusions...You still don't know why he used the JW translation.

Good try.

Your statement shows you had not even read the preface of the book or you would have not made a statement that is shown by Al-Khadi himself to be in error. You were the one accusing me of jumping to conclusions, but you yourself have done the same.

I have done no such thing.&nbsp; Before I can jump to a conclusion, I have to first *offer*&nbsp;a conclusion.&nbsp; However, I did not offer any conclusions.&nbsp; I merely put forth a possibility, as a cautionary comment to YOU, as to why you should not be hasty in judging this person.

I did not read the preface.&nbsp; I read the beliefs comparison table, which is what you asked everyone to look at.&nbsp; If you wanted people to also check the preface, then you should have said so.

He had many Christian sources. I also know exactly why he used the JW Translation, because the verse he is dicussing has been changed in the New Word Translation and is a common one used by JW in refering to Jesus Christ as "a god'.

That's quite strange.&nbsp; If that's the case, then why doesn't Al-Khadi quote a verse that makes that (alleged) mistranslation work for his argument?&nbsp; In the&nbsp;verse you are so worried about, John 1:1,&nbsp;there is no such reference to Christ as "a god":

"In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine."&nbsp;
&nbsp;

three gods merged into one God.

Again this is not a true statement of what Christians believe. Elsewhere in the book he says that "The Trinity is 1+1+1=1" which again gives a false representation of what Christians believe. It is more like 1x1x1=1.

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd.&nbsp; There are no mathematical models or principles to represent the trinity anywhere in christianity.&nbsp; Both "equations" above are trying to wrap themselves around a logical impossibility (three beings who are one being), which is why both equations are equally false, or equally a "mystery" - however you want to put it.&nbsp;

You are straining mightily here to try and create a fictitious difference.

The goal of this book is simple: To exhibit considerable tangible evidence that the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) underwent a series of major revisions and alterations after his departure to the point that his original message to mankind was all but totally lost.

you would not be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who would disagree with the above.

berean_315

You edited the quotation.&nbsp; By leaving out the section in the middle between these two quotes, as well as by not continuing the quotation, you have distorted (deliberately, I am guessing) what Al-Khadi wrote.&nbsp; Let's look at the entire quotation, in context, without having sentences edited out of the middle of it:

The goal of this book is simple: To exhibit considerable tangible evidence that the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) underwent a series of major revisions and alterations after his departure to the point that his original message to mankind was all but totally lost. Six hundred years later (Fourteen hundred years ago), the holy book of the Muslims, the Qur'an, was sent down upon the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by God informing him of this fact. It has taken close to two thousand years for Christianity to recognize this as a known fact. Today, you would be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who, to one degree or another, does not readily acknowledge this as a true accepted fact (A minority of the most adamant conservatives will always be the exception). The evidence is simply too overwhelming to ignore.


When I speak of "scholars of Christianity" I mean those people who have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of detailed historical facts regarding the history of the Bible through the unbiased logical study of the countless ancient documents of the Christian church, the Bible itself, and other methods. These people are found in abundance in the religion departments of the various Western universities. A "scholar of Christianity" by this definition does not include the "televanglists," the "evangelists," and so forth. It has required the bravery and sacrifice of countless such unwavering seekers of truth to bring us this information. In the past, such people were casually put to death without a second thought. Even today, many of them are being fired from their jobs and black-listed for openly speaking about such matters. If they are liars then their lies should be exposed and the light of truth should be sufficient authority to shame their tongues into silence. However, if there is some truth to what they say, then such selfless dedication and vigilance against those who would distort the word of God should not be allowed to go unrecognized. For this reason we shall study the details of their findings in this book.




&nbsp;

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee


I'm one of the moderators who welcomed Zico to the forum. It was an act of courtesty from one human being to another.
And Brian, I've never been nice and soft target.

&nbsp;

2&nbsp; CORINTHIANS&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp; :

&nbsp;

The Danger of Being Deceived
<SUP>1</SUP> Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me.<SUP> 2</SUP>For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.<SUP> 3</SUP>But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity<SUP>[1]</SUP> that is in Christ.<SUP> 4</SUP>For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

 

[Brian45]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
Welcome and Blessings, Zico ..

&nbsp;

Beware of Antichrist Deceivers
<SUP>7</SUP> For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.<SUP> 8</SUP>Look to yourselves, that we<SUP>[2]</SUP> do not lose those things we worked for, but that we<SUP>[3]</SUP> may receive a full reward.
<SUP>9</SUP>Whoever transgresses<SUP>[4]</SUP> and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.<SUP> 10</SUP>If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;<SUP> 11</SUP>for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Brian45


&nbsp;

2&nbsp; CORINTHIANS&nbsp; 11&nbsp;&nbsp; :

&nbsp;

The Danger of Being Deceived
<SUP>1</SUP> Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me.<SUP> 2</SUP>For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.<SUP> 3</SUP>But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity<SUP>[1]</SUP> that is in Christ.<SUP> 4</SUP>For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

Hello Brian..Like I said before, your concern is quite touching. (No sarcasm intended)
I am quite stable in my faith and have never had a problem conversing with those of other belief systems.
I'm married to a non-believer and live less than a 1/4 mile from Islamic Temple. So obviously I have friends who are Muslim. I am conciously a Christian and nothing could take me away from my faith.
Part of the joy of being a moderator is welcoming people.

 

[Brian45]

Hi Annabel . I don't hate Zico , I do hate the fact that he preached Islam on a christian forum . Islam is a lie and is of the Devil , we might as well welcome satan himself to the forum . At first I thought he was joking but he wasn't , he came to preach Islam , not to learn about christianity . I also have muslim friends , but they don't preach to me because they know what they will get . ha ha .

Maybe&nbsp; ecumenism&nbsp; is more popular than even I had thought .

Have a nice day Annabel&nbsp; .

 

[Brian45]

Hello again Annabel ..
I hope that picture is not a photograff of you , because if it is , then I hate to tell you this , but you may need a face lift . ha ha ha ha .

I hope you have a sense of humour or I'm dead . ha ha

 

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by Brian45
Hello again Annabel ..
I hope that picture is not a photograff of you , because if it is , then I hate to tell you this , but you may need a face lift . ha ha ha ha .

I hope you have a sense of humour or I'm dead . ha ha

You're messing with the Klingon lady??...Uh-Oh, bad idea!