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Mary and Christ in the Quran

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Zico, Jun 25, 2002.

  1. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

    17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

    18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

    19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

    20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

    21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

    22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

    23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

    24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

    25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

    26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

    27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

    28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

    29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

    30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

    31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

    32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

    33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

    34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

    35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

     

                        The Noble Qur'an  surah:19  Mariam (Mary).

     

    For more refer to this thread  http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16825

    To learn more about the religion http://islamicity.com/education/understandingislamandmuslims/
     
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  2. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Hey zico , I don't get it , what are you trying to say ?
     
  3. Patmosman_sga

    Patmosman_sga Member

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    He's trying to convert us to Islam. Just ignore him or, better yet, pray for him.
     
  4. Mallory Knox

    Mallory Knox Active Member

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    So what's Islam all about anyway?
     
  5. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

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    zico,

     

     fill out your profile. thanks.
     
  6. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Hi all...

    DaveKerwin : sorry i was in a hurry i'll try to fill it up soon.

    Patmosman : i'm only trying to show u all that we are not different . i'm sure i don't want u to ignore me but its i would be thankfull if u did pray for me
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    We WILL pray for you, it is a certainty. That you will discover the truth of Jesus, Immanuel, GOD-WITH-US. The One who "had no mother, no father, neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made (to be) like the Son of God, He abides a priest forever (order of Melchezidek).

    We will pray that you will see the reality of "Christianity preaching LIFE", full here and eternal there; while Islam preaches death.

    Jesus called Himself God. Whoever denies this, calls Jesus a LIAR.

    May I suggest a book for you? "Answering Islam". Mohammed ERRED in many of his prophecies. He was subject to drunkenness and violence. He wedded a 9-year-old-girl. Can you see these are not attributes of a godly man? Do you know the origin of the crescent of the Islamic symbol? Islam preaches death and destruction. Christianity preaches life. Which sounds closer to a Godly religion?
    Islam is simply saying, "There is no god but allah, and Mohammed is his prophet". If a man says that, he is a Moslem. The two foundational themes in Islam, is "serve God", and "gihad" (holy war). While the two themes of Christianity, are "love God with all that you are", and "love your neighbor". On THIS is all the Scripture and law and gospel based.

    The single word that defines us Christians, is RESURRECTION. But the Kuran claims JESUS BE NOT RESURRECTED. Which is to say, it denies our faith on the most fundamental level. The two are not compatible. Those who say, "We-muslems wish to be friends with our Christian brothers", do not understand the dire differences. We do care for Moslems as people, we love them and desire to walk the streets of Heaven with them. But they will only BE there, if they forsake their false religion and follow Jesus. Jesus said, "I am the ONLY DOOR. I am the way, the truth, and the life---no one coems to the Father, but through Me." Jn10:9,14:6

    I posted this on another thread, I shall repeat it here. Quotes from your "friendly Kuran":

    002-091: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    004.089: "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    004.091You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their
    own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong;
    therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.


    And it denies the Crucifixion, 004-157: "And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. "

    "And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain". 1Cor15:14


    FRIENDS of Christianity? When their very own text call for them to "kill us wherever they find us" (if we do not convert)?

    I do not believe the Kuran ("Qu'ran") endorses living in peace and love. An Islam state is a
    totalitarian rulership. Those who dare mention Jesus, are imprisoned, and killed. I think we should be aware of this in our dealings with terrorist
    governments...
     
  8. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Well Ben this is also my reply to u from the other thread

    Ben : First of all, from where did you get this 2.91 ???? 2.91 is this When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

    and secondly , why don't u read what's before and after that

    4.88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

    4.89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

    4.90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

    4.91. Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

    4.92. Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

    4.93. If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

    4.94. O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.

    and for last.. don't be afraid, Jews and Chistians are not the Hypocrites in here they are the ones which calif Omar said to them (if u woship Muhammad then he is dead, But if u worship god then he is alive and never dies) then they went to to worship the tree which Muhammad used to sit below it's shades.

    P.S.: From where did u get these verses ,,, CNN ??
     
  9. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    And u know what Ben,, I'll be talking to good christians from now on.

    5.82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

    5.83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

    5.84. "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

    5.85. And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
     
  10. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Please don't mix us with Bin laden or abo sayyaf or what ever else and don't beleive every thing which u see or hear in the media. that's all that i want to say.
     
  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    From an "online Kuran". Did I get the reference wrong?
    But a believer is one who embraces Islam. And a Jew, or a Christian, is an "unbeliever"...
    What do you call a "good Christian"? One who does not point out the contradictions in Mohammed's life? One who accepts the Kuran's rejection of the Crucifixion and Resurrection?
    And this is acceptable to you? Jesus SAID He was GOD. C. S. Lewis proposed the "three-fold-argumet": Jesus WAS God, or He was NOT---and KNEW it, He was a LIAR (and died for a lie---and the Disciples pulled the greatest "con" of all time, the resurrection, somehow having Jesus appear to THOUSANDS...). OR, He was NOT God, and did NOT know it---Jesus was a RAVING LUNATIC. (And the Disciples pulled the greatest "con" of all time...)

    Lord
    Liar
    Lunatic

    Which one?

    Mohammed never claimed to be God. Buddha never did. Joseph Smith did not. Mary Baker Eddy did not. NO OTHER FOUNDER DID. Only Jesus. Now, if Jesus WAS "God-became-man", then what of the "rejecting faith"? Would that not be, those who reject JESUS???

    I meant not to offend you, only to convey that I am offended by the two-facedness of Islam. We (Christians and Moslems) are NOT the same. I hope you will remain here, and ask some valid questions. Does God have a nature? Yes. Can God (or anyone) go against their nature? No. God is absolute good, perfect love. Yet Islam believes God CREATED EVIL.

    Do you know the two main differences between Islam and Christianity? These cut to the core of the differences between us. Islam, along with Judaeism, Buddhism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, in fact every religion on the Earth, is founded on:

    1. Jesus is NOT GOD.
    2. Salvation (Nirvanah, Heaven, whatever...) is by WORKS.

    While, Christianity, not being called "a religion", is founded on:

    1. Jesus IS GOD.
    2. Salvation is CHRIST-IN-YOU. The WORKS are a consequence of HIM IN YOU.

    So, Religion says, "You ARE what you DO".

    Christianity says, "You DO what you ARE."

    Because salvation is by RECEIVING CHRIST, we can ABSOLUTELY SAY that we are going to Heaven. It is not by our efforts, so "we are saved" is not arrogant. We are Heaven-bound, by His work. "He who HAS THE SON, has the LIFE. I write this that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." 1Jn5

    Can Islam say that? No. You have to strive to do good, and then you stand before God and hope-and-hope that the scales tilt towards "GOOD", towards "HEAVEN". There is no sureness. No "confidence"...

    Islam is founded on OBEDIENCE. Christianity is founded on LOVE.

    "By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God sent His only unique Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought to love one another. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us His Spirit. We have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us." 1Jn4:9-19

    I did not mean to offend you, please forgive me if you were. I wish to challenge you and your beliefs. You post on a Christian message board, you are to expect Christian response.

    I hope you stay and challenge us too...

    :)
     
  12. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    I'm sorry too Ben if i did offend u, I apologize :) , i thoght this part of the forum was for every body, Christian or not. and then Ben are u trying to tell me that u can do vertualy any thing (kill, steal, rape, cheat, etc) and then escape the punishment in the hereafter ? well ben surely this isn't fair. don't study and you'll fail, don't work and you'll starve. the sky does not rain gold, this is how things work.    fair enough ?
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Hey, Zico. The nature of salvation, from the Christian perspective, is "CHRIST-IN-YOU". Expressed eloquently by Paul in Gal2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ (my old, sin-inclined-self), it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me." What other religions find hard to understand, is that "Christianity is the real person of God, IN OUR HEARTS". It's a spiritual thing. His Spirit, indwells our hearts, doing the good deeds THROUGH us (see Philippians 2:12-13). Are we sinless? Not while we live. Our flesh is weak, we sometimes stumble. But in general, we walk in His presence, hand-in-hand, every moment. The nature of salvation, is FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD (through Christ) (see 1John1:3,6).

    Where am I going with this? Well, being saved, means that we have changed NATURES. With God inside our hearts, our natures are no longer fundamentally evil. So, now I give you Jesus' words: "Grapes are not gathered from bushes, are they? Nor figs from thistles? Even so, every GOOD tree bears GFOOD FRUIT; but the BAD tree bears BAD fruit. No good tree produces bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will KNOW THEM by their FRUITS".

    "Fruits", of course, are DEEDS. You ask if I can "kill, steal, cheat, rape"? CERTAINLY NOT! If I abide in God, if He abides in me, then my NATURE IS CHANGED. I am no longer a BAD TREE, but a GOOD TREE. I CANNOT do those evil things. They that DO those evil things, HAVE NOT GOD. I'm certain that Islam recognizes this truth.

    Alas, I am very sorry to say, in the Christian world are many "pretenders". Always have been. Jesus Himself said, "Not everyone will inherit the kingdom of God, but those who DO the will of the FATHER. Many will come to Me on the day of judgment and say, 'Lord! Lord! Dod we not prophesy in Your name, and cast out demons, and do many miracles in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE WICKEDNESS!"

    No good tree will produce bad fruit, no bad tree good fruit.

    You DO what you ARE.

    ...and no, you did not offend me. I am only mildly offended when Islam portends to be sympathetic with Christianity. I am very well aware that Islamic countries, including Turkey, Saudi Arabia, will IMPRISON and EXECUTE Christians for MENTIONING Jesus to others. Not a very friendly attitude...
     
  14. bartleby

    bartleby New Member

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    Ben,

    "C. S. Lewis proposed the "three-fold-argumet": Jesus WAS God, or He was NOT---and KNEW it, He was a LIAR (and died for a lie---and the Disciples pulled the greatest "con" of all time, the resurrection, somehow having Jesus appear to THOUSANDS...). OR, He was NOT God, and did NOT know it---Jesus was a RAVING LUNATIC. (And the Disciples pulled the greatest "con" of all time...)"

    just a passing comments but C.S. Lewis's argument is flawed. the whole argument rests on the acceptance of the Bible (or at least the Gospels) as being infallible. if the Bible is not declared infallible then we cannot be sure that what we're reading is what happened and so we can generate a much larger number of possibilities other than the 3 Lewis gives us, though we can longer choose between them except in an arbitary way. if, however, we accept this claim of infallibility then it would be willfully perverse to deny the divinity (to some degree) of Christ. But who is there who would accept the infallibility of the Bible whilst denying Christ any divinity at all? no one, and as the argument is attacking a belief that no one actually holds it seems that its only an argument against straw men.

    one further question - "Can God (or anyone) go against their nature? No. God is absolute good, perfect love. Yet Islam believes God CREATED EVIL."

    who do you beleive created evil?

    thanks
    bb
     
  15. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    You still haven't answered me Zico .
     
  16. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    This is how evil began:-

    30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

    31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

    32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

    33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

    34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

    35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

    36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

    37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

    38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    Surah 2 (The Cow)


    And also this verse:-

    26. We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

    27. And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.

    28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

    29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

    30. So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together:

    31. Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

    32. ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"

    33. (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."

    34. ((Allah)) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.

    35. "And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."

    36. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."

    37. ((Allah)) said: "Respite is granted thee

    38. "Till the Day of the Time appointed."

    39. (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

    40. "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

    41. ((Allah)) said: "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

    42. "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

    43. And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

    44. To it are seven gates: for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

    45. The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).

    46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in peace and security."

    Surah 15: (Stoneland)
     
  17. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Sorry Brian45, having diffeculty with my connection to the net. :)
     
  18. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

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    Yeh sure , pull the other one , it plays jingle bells . ha ha
     
  19. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Ben. the problem with the moslem nations now is that they left science and grabbed the book only and thats what Muhammad (pbuh) warned us about in his saying about the un knowing servant of god who is doing harm which will harm himself and harm people also, who thinks that he is right but he is not (i.e. Bin laden). and he also warned us about taking sience and leaving the book (which u did in the western world) also. so u see it's a problem both ways.

    sorry can't find those sayings of the prophit now ( can't access the directory) and u have to forgive my language cuz im not english u see. :)

    P.S.: Examples of the Prophet`s sayings


    The Prophet said:

    'God has no mercy on one who has no mercy for others.'

    'None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.'

    'He who eats his fill while his neighbor goes without food is not a believer. '

    'The truthful and trusty businessman is associated with the prophets the saints, and the martyrs.'

    'Powerful is not he who knocks the other down, indeed powerful is he who controls himself in a fit of anger. '

    'God does not judge according to your bodies and appearances but He scans your hearts and looks into your deeds.'

    'Seek science even if it leads you to China.'

    'A man walking along a path felt very thirsty. Reaching a well he descended into it, drank his fill and came up. Then he saw a dog with its tongue hanging out, trying to lick up mud to quench its thirst. The man saw that the dog was feeling the same thirst as he had felt so he went down into the well again and filled his shoe with water and gave the dog a drink. God forgave his sins for this action.' The Prophet was asked: 'Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?' He said, 'There is a reward for kindness to every living thing.'

    From the hadith collections of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi and Bayhaqi
     
  20. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Brian45 : Yeh sure , pull the other one , it plays jingle bells . ha ha

    ??????? :confused:
     
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