Mary a virgin?

[Jonaitis]

Hi Family,

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

~Natsumi Lam~

I thought it strange to find out that the Reformers held to the perpetual virginity of Mary, using the argument of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I do think that the statement that Joseph didn't know his wife until Jesus was born indicates she didn't remain a virgin afterwards. Besides that point, Joseph married Mary, to refrain conjugal rights is actually against the purpose of marriage. The Law of Moses, if I recall, addresses this in some area (maybe a slave or concubine?). Joseph originally married her for a real marriage, the perpetual virginity belief makes no sense.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The statement of Joseph not knowing Mary until she brought forth Jesus is the same as when Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age". We don't assume He will then abandon us.

That reasoning is placing modern understanding of English back onto Greek of twenty centuries ago.

And the Reformers believed Mary remained a virgin because it's what was always believed.

Procreation was not the sole purpose for marriage. It was also (often largely) about protection and provision.

If Mary was any other girl betrothed to be married and was told she would bear a son, why would she ask "how can this be?" Another young woman about to be married would just assume her new husband would father the child. Mary said "how can this be, since I know no man?" because she was already dedicated to be a virgin. The question doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

[Jonaitis]

The statement of Joseph not knowing Mary until she brought forth Jesus is the same as when Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age". We don't assume He will then abandon us.

I am assuming your post is directed at what I stated?

And the Reformers believed Mary remained a virgin because it's what was always believed.

It was believed for a long period, but not always.

Procreation was not the sole purpose for marriage. It was also (often largely) about protection and provision.

Yes, marriage includes the protection and provision of the home, but procreation was the essential creation mandate for marriage, and it was an essential part of the ancient world to have a large offspring. This was the reason why polygamy and concubines were allowed, they did it, not for lust, but to increase their seed. The more wives and concubines, the more offspring that can be produced. It is absurd for that kind of marriage unions to exist today, than it did in the ancient world.

If Mary was any other girl betrothed to be married and was told she would bear a son, why would she ask "how can this be?" Another young woman about to be married would just assume her new husband would father the child. Mary said "how can this be, since I know no man?" because she was already dedicated to be a virgin. The question doesn't make sense otherwise.

Betrothed, in this case, didn't mean they were already living with each other as a married couple. This is how it makes sense...

 

[prodromos]

I think this is called an argument from silence.
Up to you to show from scripture that Joseph had a previous marriage and children from that.

The attitude of Jesus brothers towards him as recorded in Scripture is entirely consistent with them being older brothers to their celebrity younger brother, and not at all consistent with younger brothers growing up in the shadow of the Son of God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I thought it strange to find out that the Reformers held to the perpetual virginity of Mary, using the argument of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I do think that the statement that Joseph didn't know his wife until Jesus was born indicates she didn't remain a virgin afterwards. Besides that point, Joseph married Mary, to refrain conjugal rights is actually against the purpose of marriage. The Law of Moses, if I recall, addresses this in some area (maybe a slave or concubine?). Joseph originally married her for a real marriage, the perpetual virginity belief makes no sense.

The Reformers also held to the divine inspiration of Scripture, belief that Jesus is Lord, Christ, and God, that God is loving, kind, just, merciful, and good. They also held that sin exists. They held that Jesus was born of a virgin, died for our sins, and rose from the dead. Using the argument of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

Want to know why they did? Because they were Christians.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Eloy Craft]

If Mary had children after Jesus it would have been a great insult to the family to give their mother to John rather than one of them.

 

[blackribbon]

The statement of Joseph not knowing Mary until she brought forth Jesus is the same as when Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age". We don't assume He will then abandon us.

That reasoning is placing modern understanding of English back onto Greek of twenty centuries ago.

And the Reformers believed Mary remained a virgin because it's what was always believed.

Procreation was not the sole purpose for marriage. It was also (often largely) about protection and provision.

If Mary was any other girl betrothed to be married and was told she would bear a son, why would she ask "how can this be?" Another young woman about to be married would just assume her new husband would father the child. Mary said "how can this be, since I know no man?" because she was already dedicated to be a virgin. The question doesn't make sense otherwise.

Jewish culture has no "dedication to remain to be a virgin". They value motherhood .. a lot. In fact, you gain your right to be called a Jew through your mother's heritage. Why would she have dedicated herself to be a virgin then agree to be married? Hence, and any previous children would in fact be known as the children of their mother and Joseph, not their stepmother, Mary.

Also why would the Bible identify that Mary and Elizabeth were cousins but not make that distinguishment between Jesus and cousins? Family lines and relationships are very important to the Jewish culture.

She says "how can this be?" because she knows she is currently a virgin. I has nothing to do with the future. She knew the angel wasn't talking about some unknown time in the future but that she was going to have a baby now, before the period of time where she consummated her marriage was over. (Bethroyal in Jewish tradition was a period of 12 months were the couple was legally married in all ways except consummation and living in the same home.) Remember the angel had also come to her to her cousin, Elizabeth who was currently pregnant after getting a similar announcement.

BETROTHAL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The fact that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters says there is more Biblical evidence that she did not remain a virgin. Relying on traditions of your church does not prove Biblical evidence. There is no Biblical evidence that she died a virgin. In fact, very little is said of her at all except that she scolded Jesus for staying back with the scholars and scaring her too death...and that he told his disciples to tell her to wait while addressing others before seeing his mother....and that he asked John to look out for her after he died.

A married person stops being married when one spouse dies...as in "until death do you part". Until is can very well designate a point of change. It would have made more sense to have said that Joseph did not consummate the marriage instead of using the word "until" meaning after the birth of the baby Jesus so that there would be no doubt of the parentage of the child Jesus. Other than that, there is nothing particularly godly about virginity in marriage. The marriage act itself is the only real way that a marriage is different than a close friendship or a daughter who remains under the protection of a father or a brother. And the act of marriage is important for more than procreation because it is the act that binds a married couple into "two becoming one". I hope that this important part of marriage doesn't stop at menopause in marriage and procreation isn't a possibility anymore.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Joseph and Mary werr given the opportunity to agree to be members of the Holy Family and for good reason. A life on the front line with the enemy. Is it fair to ask adults to serve but not children?

 

[prodromos]

Jewish culture has no "dedication to remain to be a virgin".

Numbers 30 suggests otherwise.

They value motherhood .. a lot. In fact, you gain your right to be called a Jew through your mother's heritage.

Mary's motherhood was the fulfillment of several prophecies. She was the mother of He who is the source of all life. Why would she need to have other children?

Why would she have dedicated herself to be a virgin then agree to be married?

Joseph was acting as her guardian, providing a safe context where her Son could be born and raised in anonymity until the beginning of His ministry.

Hence, and any previous children would in fact be known as the children of their mother and Joseph, not their stepmother, Mary.

Which is probably why Scripture only refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus.

 

[disciple Clint]

I thought it strange to find out that the Reformers held to the perpetual virginity of Mary, using the argument of the Orthodox and Roman Catholic.

I do think that the statement that Joseph didn't know his wife until Jesus was born indicates she didn't remain a virgin afterwards. Besides that point, Joseph married Mary, to refrain conjugal rights is actually against the purpose of marriage. The Law of Moses, if I recall, addresses this in some area (maybe a slave or concubine?). Joseph originally married her for a real marriage, the perpetual virginity belief makes no sense.

There is no absolute answer as far as I know regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary. It has been suggested that she and Joseph were Essenes. The Essenes had members who committed to lifelong celibacy even among some married couples. If Mary and Joseph were committed to this celibate relationship and had entered into a vow of virginity it would explain why she was so shocked when she was told she was going to have a child. This would not be anything unusual if they had normal married relationships and she would have had no reason to question it. There is also the evidence provided by the Protoevangelium of James. It is noteworthy that Origen, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and John Wesley endorsed the perpetual virginity of Mary.

 

[blackribbon]

Numbers 30 suggests otherwise.

Mary's motherhood was the fulfillment of several prophecies. She was the mother of He who is the source of all life. Why would she need to have other children?

Joseph was acting as her guardian, providing a safe context where her Son could be born and raised in anonymity until the beginning of His ministry.

Which is probably why Scripture only refers to Mary as the mother of Jesus.

Numbers 30 doesn't refer to a vow to be a virgin...it is about any vow she might make, and the circumstances that it is to be followed and when it can be nullified. It says nothing about vowing to be a virgin and as I said, this is not a vow that is part of the Jewish culture.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Culturally speaking, it could be that it was the result of the deep hellenization of the Jews at that time. This is just a guess on my part.

But quite simply, this is something received within the early Church. I know some people have taken to applying philosophical and historical criticism and saying "the Church must have been wrong about xyz" (which incidentally has led to all sorts of speculations!). But quite simply, there is a large portion of Christianity that holds to maintaining what has been received and rejects any innovation of those things. Welcome to Traditional Theology. (Though to be fair what is considered "innovation" varies among the members here - we don't agree on everything and that's ok.)

I'm not interested in arguing, but this has been hashed out repeatedly in the last few centuries (and within at least one departure within the early centuries), and all of the arguments have answers if anyone wants to know them.

 

[prodromos]

Numbers 30 doesn't refer to a vow to be a virgin...it is about any vow she might make, and the circumstances that it is to be followed and when it can be nullified. It says nothing about vowing to be a virgin and as I said, this is not a vow that is part of the Jewish culture.

Your views seem to be based on Rabbinical Judaism, which is the only form to have survived the 1st century. Jewish culture had a much broader range of expression before the 1st century as evidenced by groups such as the Essenes.

 

[blackribbon]

In the end, I don't think it really matters if Mary died a virgin or not. She was a virgin when Christ was born. I'd be sad for her because having a loving sexual relationship with your husband is a gift from God. His parentage is through Mary (the human side) and the Holy Spirit (the God side). Salvation comes through Christ dying on the cross and us choosing to believe that He is God and follow His example.

If it turns out that Mary was a virgin at death, it won't change my faith or relationship with God. I hope that regardless of your belief, finding out the opposite won't change anything for you either.

God bless.

 

[blackribbon]

Your views seem to be based on Rabbinical Judaism, which is the only form to have survived the 1st century. Jewish culture had a much broader range of expression before the 1st century as evidenced by groups such as the Essenes.

Most Essenes appear to not have believed in marriage. If Mary had been Essene wouldn't Joseph likely be too? And where would siblings have come from...(regardless of who their mother was?) And the one order that did believe strongly in marriage, believed that consummation was a very important part of life.

Is there any evidence that Mary and Joseph were Essenes? Especially considering that her cousin Zechariah and Elizabeth were so overjoyed with her being pregnant with John? Wouldn't the Essenes have shunned Mary if she did become pregnant since it was evident that she was "loose" as all women are? Just curious if this hypothesis has historical evidence..like a link to Jesus being in a Essenine culture...not just the fact that they exist.

 

[prodromos]

I didn't say they were Essenes, I simply gave them as evidence of a much broader range of Jewish tradition than what has survived through Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hi Family,

What is the biblical basis for Mary being considered as a virgin?

What about the fact that she had kids or a kid after Jesus which requires sex?

~Natsumi Lam~

I’ve actually had to go neutral on this subject because it appears the scriptures are not conclusive either way and I have serious doubts about the proto of James.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Jesus taught that heavenly purposes are greater than eartly purposes. The Apostles gave up everything to follow Christ.

 

[disciple Clint]

Most Essenes appear to not have believed in marriage. If Mary had been Essene wouldn't Joseph likely be too? And where would siblings have come from...(regardless of who their mother was?) And the one order that did believe strongly in marriage, believed that consummation was a very important part of life.

Is there any evidence that Mary and Joseph were Essenes? Especially considering that her cousin Zechariah and Elizabeth were so overjoyed with her being pregnant with John? Wouldn't the Essenes have shunned Mary if she did become pregnant since it was evident that she was "loose" as all women are? Just curious if this hypothesis has historical evidence..like a link to Jesus being in a Essenine culture...not just the fact that they exist.

Many scholars believe that John The Baptist was Essene. St. John the Baptist | Facts, Feast Day, & Death

 

[blackribbon]

Many scholars believe that John The Baptist was Essene. St. John the Baptist | Facts, Feast Day, & Death

Your link says he wasn't Essene but may have been influenced by them