Martin Luther King Jr.

[ViaCrucis]

Theodoret recounts the time when St. Ambrose stopped the Emperor Theodosius at the entrance of the church in Milan. Recently there had been protests and riots in Thessaloniki, and the empero's response was to massacre ten thousand citizens in the streets. Word of this reached Ambrose, Milan's bishop, and so when Theodosius came to Milan and sought entry to the church, and Ambrose forbade him entrance and shamed him for his immense evil, and the emperor's conscience was pricked. The emperor asked what he should do, and so Ambrose told him to imitate King David, and so the emperor mourned over his sin wearing sackcloth and ashes as David did.

Ambrose could have just ignored this, but he didn't. Ambrose performed his pastoral duty, and preached the Law to condemn the sins of the emperor, and the emperor saw his sin and sought repentance.

To suggest that it is not the duty of a pastor to pastor is ridiculous. It is precisely as a minister of God's word that King became a public advocate for civil rights--because it was his sworn duty as a minister of God's word to care for the flock of Christ. And so like ancient Ambrose did called the powers out on their egregious evil, to publicly shame them; preaching the Law which condemns sin, and preaching the Gospel which accepts sinners.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WebersHome]

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Poster children and sacred cows like Martin Luther King Jr and Mother Teresa make good case studies in how not to follow Christ. King is an example of an ordained minister gone off-reservation, and Teresa is an example of a missionary gone abroad under her own steam.

Of the two, I'd have to say that Teresa was the more pathetic; as she complained in private letters to her spiritual counselors:

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me"

"I feel He does not want me, He is not there, God does not want me"

"I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

"When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. How painful is this unknown pain-- I have no faith."

Teresa also complained of feeling abandoned by Christ-- referring to him as "the absent one"

It turns out Teresa was a remarkable actor. Her public image bore no resemblance whatsoever to the secret life of her inner being.

FYI: Teresa's quotes were taken from:

Mother Teresa / Come Be My Light
The Private Writings of the "Saint of Calcutta"
Edited with commentary by Brian Kolodiejchuk, M.C.
ISBN 978-0-385-52037-9

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[Kristen Davis]

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Two things that Christ and his Father value very highly are integrity and loyalty.

● 2Tim 2:4 . . As Christ's soldier, do not let yourself become tied up in the affairs of this life, for then you cannot satisfy the one who has enlisted you in his army.

● 1Tim 4:14 . . Focus upon the public reading of scripture, and to preaching and teaching.

MLK Jr was an ordained Christian minister. Had he remained faithful to his calling as per the two passages above, instead of abandoning his post for political activism, he might still be alive today.

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Yes the passing of MLK was tragic but I'm glad his political activism brought change in the lives of African Americans. Today his legacy lives on in the lives of African Americans in the movie Selma.

 

[Kristen Davis]

I respect and appreciate all that Dr. King accomplished. He certainly deserves to have a holiday to honor all his accomplishments and the accomplishments of others like him. What I don't like is the businesses that take MLK day off and make their employees work on President's Day. If MLK would have accomplished more than all the presidents combined it would make sense. Let's give everybody the credit they deserve. Let's love and appreciate everybody equally.

Amen!

 

[Kristen Davis]

Indeed.

I don't think King was sinless or beyond criticism but I think we should take him seriously as a Christian pastor. Just because his religion didn't line up with conservative white evangelicalism isn't a good reason to dismiss him as a "social worker".



You are playing with hellfire.

King was just following Bonhoeffer's example. At some point you get tired of bandaging the victims of injustice and you must break the wheel that crushes them in the first place. The idolatry of racism has no place in a Christian's soul.

Amen and praise God for you!

 

[WebersHome]

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we should take him seriously as a Christian pastor.

That's just it. King wasn't a pastor. He gave that up to go into political activism.

People are easily fooled into believing that King was a successful minister because they're inadequately catechized; i.e. they're unaware that the epistles contain specific instructions for ordained Christian ministers; and that failure to comply with those instructions leads to unsatisfactory performance ratings.

● 2Tim 2:5 . . If anyone competes as an athlete, he does not receive the victor's crown unless he competes according to the rules.

King threw out the rules; and in doing so, became Christ's enemy.

● John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.

● John 15:14 . . You are my friends, if you do what I command you.

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[WebersHome]

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You're quoting from Paul.

The apostle Paul spoke for Christ.

● 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of The Lord.

● 1Thess 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by The Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by The Lord Jesus.

Therefore ordained Christian ministers that fail to comply with the apostle Paul's instructions, are failing to comply with Christ's. It's a domino effect all the way to the top.

● Luke 10:16 . .Whoever listens to you; listens to me. Whoever rejects you; rejects me. And whoever rejects me; rejects the one who sent me.

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[Root of Jesse]

I respect and appreciate all that Dr. King accomplished. He certainly deserves to have a holiday to honor all his accomplishments and the accomplishments of others like him. What I don't like is the businesses that take MLK day off and make their employees work on President's Day. If MLK would have accomplished more than all the presidents combined it would make sense. Let's give everybody the credit they deserve. Let's love and appreciate everybody equally.

I don't know if he deserves a national holiday, honestly, considering how people are using it, but that's not my business. Most people don't know what Memorial Day is, or Christmas, for that matter. MLK Birthday is used to politicize and highlight a time in our history when we didn't treat all men equally. I don't think we can ever forget that, but I do also think that people politicize it over much. For example, they interviewed every basketball player before the game about what it means to them, and mostly, they talk about racism.
Folks today in this country do not really know what racism is. They even call what the President said the other day racist, when he didn't even mention any humans. He said the countries are s***holes. Nothing about the people. I criticize his language, but not what he said. If the immigrants from those countries are so offended, they can go back to those great countries, tout suite. /rant

 

[ViaCrucis]

They even call what the President said the other day racist, when he didn't even mention any humans. He said the countries are s***holes. Nothing about the people.

If the countries are bad, but the people are fine, then why doesn't he want them here?

Countries aren't immigrants. People are.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[PloverWing]

King is an example of an ordained minister gone off-reservation, and Teresa is an example of a missionary gone abroad under her own steam.

Good grief. Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity with the full permission and blessing of her church.

Is there any situation in which you think it is acceptable for a Christian to be sent by a church as a missionary?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

proverbs 26:4

 

[WebersHome]

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Good grief. Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity with the full permission and blessing of her church.

When a missionary complains of a disconnect with God as severe as Teresa's complaints in post #22, they are abroad under their own steam regardless of a church's blessing.

Teresa's perpetual darkness, her spiritual dryness, her feelings of abandonment, the absence of even the faintest glimmer of The Lord's presence, her lack of faith, and her pretense, are especially inconsistent with the apostle Paul-- whom I believe to be a far more reliable role model for missionaries than Teresa was even on her best day.

Teresa was never really convinced there's a God out there. At one point she actually prayed thus:

"If there be God; please forgive me."

A prayer that begins with "If there be God" is the prayer of an agnostic; which Webster's defines as one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. According to Jas 1:5-8, agnostic prayers are pings.

To her credit, Teresa wanted a God to be out there, but her utter failure to feel even the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence prevented her from being sure about it.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

That kind of spiritual decadence is fatal; not only to missionaries, but to anyone else in the same condition.

● Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists.

Webster's defines "impossible" as incapable of being, or of occurring.

Webster's defines "must" as an indispensable item; viz: essential.

Ironically, a demon's level of faith is actually superior to Teresa's. At least they believe in the existence of God.

● Jas 2:19-20 . . You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe

I simply cannot approve a missionary whose iffy belief in the existence of God doesn't even measure up to the quality of a demon's belief.

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[Root of Jesse]

If the countries are bad, but the people are fine, then why doesn't he want them here?

Countries aren't immigrants. People are.

-CryptoLutheran

Right, but Trump was talking about countries, not people, being s***holes. He's right, in my experience, about Haiti. It's funny how, after all the tragedy there, with earthquakes and storms, and Bill Clinton to the rescue, nothing's better there. FWIW, many Haitians emigrate to the Dominican Republic, who doesn't really want them either.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Right, but Trump was talking about countries, not people, being s***holes. He's right, in my experience, about Haiti. It's funny how, after all the tragedy there, with earthquakes and storms, and Bill Clinton to the rescue, nothing's better there. FWIW, many Haitians emigrate to the Dominican Republic, who doesn't really want them either.

And, again, the context was immigration; that people from bleephole countries are less worthy to come to American, than say, Norway. The president wasn't saying "these countries aren't very good, and the people have endured much" he was saying he doesn't think people from those countries have the same value as immigrants than people from, for example, Norway.

The problem isn't that he used a naughty word in reference to other countries. The problem is that in context it is an attack on the value of people from those countries. That's why people are upset.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Root of Jesse]

And, again, the context was immigration; that people from bleephole countries are less worthy to come to American, than say, Norway.

That's not what he said. It's the place that's horrible, not the people stuck there.

The president wasn't saying "these countries aren't very good, and the people have endured much" he was saying he doesn't think people from those countries have the same value as immigrants than people from, for example, Norway.

And they don't, because, mostly, of being stuck in their plight. Lack of education will do that to people.

The problem isn't that he used a naughty word in reference to other countries. The problem is that in context it is an attack on the value of people from those countries. That's why people are upset.

-CryptoLutheran

I understand why people are upset, but they're upset about nothing.
Let me ask you something: How many people think Haiti is a good place to visit? Or Nigeria? Or Uganda? Or the Congo? Why don't people go there on vacation?
I have been to the other side of Hispaniola, and the country there is poor, but tidy, except for the resort areas, which are wealthy. I've gone on day-trips to the plantations and seen how simply the people live, but they don't have welfare, and don't accept it. On the other hand, missionaries go to Haiti and try to help the people, and then there's Clinton Global Initiative, who took lots of money to help Haiti, and did nothing to help Haiti.
I disapprove of the president's language (even that reported in books about him which were private conversations), but his message is spot on. We should receive people into this country who will help the country, not those who will drag them down.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's not what he said. It's the place that's horrible, not the people stuck there.And they don't, because, mostly, of being stuck in their plight. Lack of education will do that to people.
I understand why people are upset, but they're upset about nothing.
Let me ask you something: How many people think Haiti is a good place to visit? Or Nigeria? Or Uganda? Or the Congo? Why don't people go there on vacation?
I have been to the other side of Hispaniola, and the country there is poor, but tidy, except for the resort areas, which are wealthy. I've gone on day-trips to the plantations and seen how simply the people live, but they don't have welfare, and don't accept it. On the other hand, missionaries go to Haiti and try to help the people, and then there's Clinton Global Initiative, who took lots of money to help Haiti, and did nothing to help Haiti.
I disapprove of the president's language (even that reported in books about him which were private conversations), but his message is spot on. We should receive people into this country who will help the country, not those who will drag them down.

Except you seem to be missing my--and others'--point. The president didn't just suggest these are bad places to live, but intimated that the people are of less value as immigrants to America. Why should a Norwegian be preferred over a Haitian as far as it concerns coming to this country. That's the issue, that's what bothers us. That the president was attacking, or at the very least implying, that the immigration value of a person from Haiti is less than a person from Norway; I don't see how we can take it any other way. The president wasn't talking about Haiti simply being a worse place to live than Norway, but that we should want people from Norway over people from Haiti--that directly speaks of the value of persons, not merely the condition of living conditions in a particular country for those people.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WebersHome]

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Civil disobedience, except as per Ex 1:8-21, is out of the question for ordained Christian ministers.

● Ex 23:2 . . Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong.

● Rom 3:8 . . Let us do evil that good may result? Their condemnation is deserved.

● Rom 12:21 . . Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

● Rom 13:1-2 . . Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

● 1Pet 2:13-15 . . Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

In matters related to law and order, ordained Christian ministers are supposed to be exemplary.

● 1Tim 4:12 . . Set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

In addition; an ordained Christian minister's preaching is not for the benefit of the world, rather, for the benefit of a congregation; and it better not be political preaching.

● Eph 4:11-12 . . He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ

● 1Tim 4:13 . . Focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them.

The world likes to think of King as a pastor, but he wasn't a pastor; no, not even a little; not for Christ anyway: King was first and foremost a renegade Christian minister gone over to the dark side.

NOTE: The Bible speaks of a darkness about which the world is unaware due to its inadequate knowledge of Christianity.

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[PloverWing]

I agree that the Bible includes the verses you mention, and Christians should not disobey the government for frivolous reasons. But the Bible also gives us examples of Christians being imprisoned or executed for disobeying human authorities, when human laws were in conflict with following God. Acts, in particular, has several examples of this.

 

[WebersHome]

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I suppose with enough imagination one could invent any number of rationalized excuses to justify the circumvention of law and order.

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