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Married Priests

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by JeffreyLloyd, Jul 28, 2003.

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  1. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    It's a lot like catholicism in style and manner, and anglicans call themselves catholics in some of their prayers. When I first left the catholic church, I went to an Episcopal church for pretty much the same reasons.
     
  2. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    Ah, so the question of valid orders, of which the Anglican faith ordains both women and homosexuals, is one of semantics? :scratch:
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Although some anglican groups ordain gays, it is not sanctioned as a whole by the anglican church and several bishops have been removed for doing it. I see nothing wrong with ordaining women. This is not a debate about the anglican church, it is a discussion about married priests. My thesis was that marriage didn't preclude my parents priest from serving well in the office. period.

    And, this man we are discussing was ordained in 1957, long before anyone every thought any church was going to ordain women or gays. You can't judge the poor guy for not having a crystal ball or reacting to things 50 years in the future.
     
  4. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    My response about women and gays was related to your challenge to me to attend an Anglican service. It had nothing to do with this man forsaking the Church because he was in a snit over not being able to have his cake and eat it too.
     
  5. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    That's just mean nyj, and uncalled for.

    The catholic church offered him an annulment of his marriage in exchange for being allowed to stay in seminary, but he chose to stay faithful to the vows he made to God regarding her, and to find a church that honored marriage for the sacred office that it is.
     
  6. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    I a big meanie-head! RAR!

    1. They offered him an annulment? Odd, annulments don't work that way though.

    2. The Catholic Church does honor marriage for the sacred office that it is. We, unlike Protestants, consider Marriage to be a Sacrament, whereby God imparts grace to those who partake of it.
     
  7. Bastoune

    Bastoune Well-Known Member

    +46
    Catholic

    I'm sorry, what? Does the Catholic Church not regard marriage as a sacrament, as a holy union between man and woman?

    http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/matri.html

    And what about chastity? It is a beautiful gift and calling from God as well:

    Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

    Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

    Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

    1 Cor 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

    1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom.

    1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

    1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ.

    1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

    2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of celibate priesthood in the Church.

    Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

    Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

    Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.


    Lambslove, your ignorance of history, theology, doctrine, and simple Bible teachings astounds me every time.

    "Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies ." (Psalm 24:24)
     
  8. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    No one is criticizing chastity. It is what I have been practicing most of my adult life.

    I never said that the Catholic church doesn't believe that marriage is a sacrament, I said they offered to let him stay in seminary if he would accept an annulment of his marriage and he felt that marriage was utterly sacred and unbreakable and refused.

    I merely gave an example of a married man who made a good priest. If that upsets you, you should take it up with the Byzantine Catholic church, not me.

    You can stop attacking me personally for reporting history. I knew this man. He was a dear friend of my family. I heard his story many times. If you are unsatisfied with the way it turned out, you cannot blame me. It all happened before I was even born.
     
  9. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    Of course you just "gave an example". It's all that you do here, which is fine because if you debated you'd be told to take it elsewhere. However, all your examples seem to be examples of the horrible things that supposedly go on within Catholicism.

    Be it truth or not, this drone will stay with Rome.



    Hey! That rhymes! :clap:
     
  10. ukok

    ukok Freaked out, insecure, neurotic and Emotional

    +399
    Catholic
    I have no intentions of causing offence to anyone here but i feel that there is a feeling of misplaced superiority being professed here that is becoming apparant in the form of misunderstanding the Anglican church.

    Might i suggest that the following site might be accessed by those who would be prepared to be enlightened somewhat. It isn't only non catholics who have there stories, doctrines etc, of Catholics askew, it seems that there are equally dispiriting comments and opinions and slights hailed in the direction of the Anglican Church. For information please follow the link below -


    http://www.cofe.anglican.org/about/frame_heritage.html

    As i have mentioned, i wish to cause no offense, i would normally leave threads like this well alone, but as i attend a C of E highly anglicised/Catholicised Church, I felt that i would like to offer the other side of the coin.

    Hope the link works, i'm not too good at getting them to work - hope that you will be generous of spirit and give it a few moments of your time.
     
  11. ukok

    ukok Freaked out, insecure, neurotic and Emotional

    +399
    Catholic
    As you will have noticed, i managed to foul it! - you'll have to click on the "What it means to be an Anglican" caption over on the left when you get there, never was very good at navigating. Ok, i'm leaving quietly now.
     
  12. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    I'm not trying to get you to leave catholicism. Not at all. I don't care what church you go to. If you are a Believer in Jesus Christ, you are a Christian, church membership is not an issue.

    I don't even think what happened to this guy was a horrible thing. He got the call to minister, and he ministered. What difference is it what building he ministered out of. My post was not about the son, it was about his father, the married priest. He was a good priest, quite capable, loving, good, and when he died, the whole town turned out to mourn him.

    You are taking offense where none is given. It was merely a factual story, and not an attack on catholicsm or anyone else. You are the one who lobbed the first volley, and still I merely stuck to the facts. Worship where you want. I still love you as a brother in Christ.
     
  13. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    Thanks, and I apologize for painting the entirety of the Anglican communion with a broad brush.
     
  14. nyj

    nyj Goodbye, my puppy

    +1,249
    Catholic
    Really? You sure did have me fooled, with your constant comments about how us Catholics can't think for ourselves, and how we don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Yah, that sort of talk makes me feel right at home!
     
  15. throughhiseyes

    throughhiseyes Member

    122
    +3
    Handing out a rose of peace......come on y'all let's play nice.
     
  16. Bastoune

    Bastoune Well-Known Member

    +46
    Catholic
    But the Byzantines can marry! Did you know there are married Latin Rite priests, converts from Protestant (Anglican and Presbyterian come to mind) sects?

    No one's attacking you, but you usually don't show much knowledge of Christian history.

    If a guy cannot stick to the vow that he made, he really didn't think before making it. I find it sad that someone would go to an Anglican Church, a church founded on one king's desire to divorce his wife and marry his mistress... and all the people murdered for defending the Church.

    No wonder there are 3 million converts per year to Catholicism in England.

    Check out this site about the "pro-Catholic" movements going on in the U.K. within the Anglican Church. They're not looking to unite with the Catholic Church, but the insight this site gives shows some of the chaos going on in Anglicanism today:

    http://www.affirmingcatholicism.org.uk/home.asp
     
  17. CopticOrthodox

    CopticOrthodox Member

    344
    +6
    Eastern Orthodox
    In the United States, Eastern Catholic bishops were forbidden by Rome to ordain married men because of strong petitioning from Irish Bishops who didn't appreciate the 'Catholicness' of Eastern Catholics and were worried about the scandle of married preists. It's only been recent that the ordination of married men has been allowed again, and it's still at a very slow pace with a lot of burocracy. So despite the fact that Eastern Catholics have married priests, stuff like the story being discussed here did happen. In fact, about 300 000 Eastern Catholics became Orthodox when a bishop felt that the only way to retain his Church's theology & spirituality was to join Orthodoxy, so he took his entire diocese into communion there. It's doesn't mean that Catholic are evil, or don't respect marriage, but there was a lot of scandle caused by that policy.
     
  18. throughhiseyes

    throughhiseyes Member

    122
    +3
    Why was marriage no longer allowed in the priesthood in the RC? What is the reason?
     
  19. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

    +12,119
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Within Orthodoxy as in the Eastern Catholic Church, a celibate priest can not marry.

    The married man is ordained to the diaconate and then to the Priesthood.

    If you go to the thread:

    "Would you tell your priest he has a hole in his pants?"

    you will find a full discussion on married priests.
     
  20. MariaRegina

    MariaRegina Well-Known Member

    +12,119
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Here are some reasons why marriage was prohibited within the Roman Catholic Church.

    Inheritance of Church property is probably the primary reason why bishops are required to be celibate, since they hold the title to the diocesan churches. Nepotism is also a factor as the sons of the Bishops could be appointed to the most wealthy and prestigious parishes.

    Jealousy However, I also heard that the bishops were jealous that priests could be happily married while the lonely bishop had to live a celibate life. You probably are aware that rich families wanted their sons to be promoted to a bishopric. It was a powerful political position. Sadly, even today, not all bishops are saintly. This is true in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

    Anyway, around 800 AD the Vatican tried to promote priestly celibacy but it was not enforced universally until sometime between the 13th to 15th century. In 1054 AD, priestly celibacy was listed as one of the reasons for the schism between the East and the West.

    more time to devote to the ministry

    less expense for the church

    freedom to travel to missions

    Hope this helps.
     
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