married converts -- OO

archer75

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I can't remember ever asking this before...if I did, apologize. How do the OO handle instances of converts who were already civilly married and whose spouses are not interested? This must happen sometimes in the West, right? I assume the convert isn't received and then...immediately excommunicated.
 

dzheremi

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Rules about marriage are not uniform across the OO communion. Armenians and I think also Syrians can marry any mainstream traditional Trinitarian Christian (Syrians there might be a difference between different kinds; I've talked to a few Indian Orthodox online who say that having Malankara Catholics in the family is pretty normal, but marrying Marthomites/Syrian Protestants wouldn't be okay...I have no idea how true that is). How else do you think think all those Armenian-Greek couples exist? :D

I'm not married, but I've been told that the only way a Coptic convert would be excommunicated is if they were to marry a non-OO after converting themselves. If you're already married, you can't really be held responsible for your pre-conversion conduct, or the fact that your non-Orthodox spouse doesn't want to change their religion but you do. I'm sure it's a unique set of challenges, particularly if kids are involved, but there's not really anything our priests or bishops can do about it. We're not Muslims. :p
 
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dzheremi

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Here is an answer from HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States Diocese. Though the context of the question is a little bit different, I believe the answer applies to your question as well, OP:

My friend asked me a question, which I am passing on to you, as I do not know the answer. She was baptized and married in a Protestant Christian Church. I told her she would need to be re-baptized in order to convert to Coptic Christianity, as her baptism is not considered valid in the Oriental Orthodox communion. Her question is whether her marriage is considered valid. She is in the process of a legal divorce and wants to know if she converts to Coptic Christianity, what her marital status will be? Will she be eligible for the marriage sacrament in the Coptic Church or not if she converts and gets a legal divorce?

The Church will never impose divorce on any married couple despite differences in worship practices established before the conversion of one of the spouses. If she is planning to convert, she should have a confession father. The reason for seeking a divorce should not be because she wishes to convert or because her husband is not Orthodox. Also, if she is going though a divorce, she must present proof of her divorce according to the rules of her current denomination, as well as the dissolution of the marriage in the civil courts.
 
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archer75

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Here is an answer from HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States Diocese. Though the context of the question is a little bit different, I believe the answer applies to your question as well, OP:

My friend asked me a question, which I am passing on to you, as I do not know the answer. She was baptized and married in a Protestant Christian Church. I told her she would need to be re-baptized in order to convert to Coptic Christianity, as her baptism is not considered valid in the Oriental Orthodox communion. Her question is whether her marriage is considered valid. She is in the process of a legal divorce and wants to know if she converts to Coptic Christianity, what her marital status will be? Will she be eligible for the marriage sacrament in the Coptic Church or not if she converts and gets a legal divorce?

The Church will never impose divorce on any married couple despite differences in worship practices established before the conversion of one of the spouses. If she is planning to convert, she should have a confession father. The reason for seeking a divorce should not be because she wishes to convert or because her husband is not Orthodox. Also, if she is going though a divorce, she must present proof of her divorce according to the rules of her current denomination, as well as the dissolution of the marriage in the civil courts.
Sounds like...

1) you would certainly be allowed to convert if married
2) you would probably not be counseled or required to refrain from relations with your spouse on the grounds that it is a fake marriage, civil marriage, anything like that
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I can't remember ever asking this before...if I did, apologize. How do the OO handle instances of converts who were already civilly married and whose spouses are not interested? This must happen sometimes in the West, right? I assume the convert isn't received and then...immediately excommunicated.

Well the Coptic Church seems to be a tough customer on this sort of thing when dealing with mixed couples. The non-Orthodox one seems to have to get rebaptised and convert before the wedding begins. If however 2 non-Orthodox people wanted to jointly convert and get baptized then I think that might be allowed but it would be one of those things that you would have to run by the priest. But saying that it appears that the Coptic Church does not recognize Catholic Sacraments, and the same goes for Protestant ones. But it would be kind of a weird situation if they extended that to marriage, because the Church has to deal with all kinds situations over the two millennia of non-Christians and other Christians who are married where marriage is treated as a social institution.
 
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AMM

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Well the Coptic Church seems to be a tough customer on this sort of thing when dealing with mixed couples. The non-Orthodox one seems to have to get rebaptised and convert before the wedding begins. If however 2 non-Orthodox people wanted to jointly convert and get baptized then I think that might be allowed but it would be one of those things that you would have to run by the priest. But saying that it appears that the Coptic Church does not recognize Catholic Sacraments, and the same goes for Protestant ones. But it would be kind of a weird situation if they extended that to marriage, because the Church has to deal with all kinds situations over the two millennia of non-Christians and other Christians who are married where marriage is treated as a social institution.
I thought the OO, or at least the Coptic church, recognized Catholic baptisms now. I recall hearing some news about that within the past few years
 
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Pavel Mosko

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I thought the OO, or at least the Coptic church, recognized Catholic baptisms now. I recall hearing some news about that within the past few years

Well I can point to some articles I just read. I was Lutheran baptized using essentially the old Catholic sprinkling method done in the name of the Trinity, and I was rebaptized in 2004 because it was not a triple immersion.

Well it appears that the Church's position is on the verge of changing on Catholic baptism.


"Pope Francis’s recent trip to Egypt was marked by a surprise announcement. In a joint declaration signed on Friday, April 28, Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros ii agreed that they would not require rebaptism for Roman Catholics who seek to join the Coptic Orthodox Church, and vice versa.

The Roman Catholic Church baptizes by sprinkling and the Coptic Orthodox Church baptizes by immersion, but this declaration opens the way for the two churches to recognize each other’s baptism sacrament.

Catholics and Copts Recognize Shared Baptism



But what I went through was very standard especially concerning some of the writings of the previous Coptic pope (Shenouda). In talking to some EO years back this was not just the policy of the Copts but also the EO prior to Metropolitan receiving the Evangelical Orthodox in the late 80s (by just Chrismation).
 
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AMM

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Well I can point to some articles I just read. I was Lutheran baptized using essentially the old Catholic sprinkling method done in the name of the Trinity, and I was rebaptized in 2004 because it was not a triple immersion.

Well it appears that the Church's position is on the verge of changing on Catholic baptism.


"Pope Francis’s recent trip to Egypt was marked by a surprise announcement. In a joint declaration signed on Friday, April 28, Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros ii agreed that they would not require rebaptism for Roman Catholics who seek to join the Coptic Orthodox Church, and vice versa.

The Roman Catholic Church baptizes by sprinkling and the Coptic Orthodox Church baptizes by immersion, but this declaration opens the way for the two churches to recognize each other’s baptism sacrament.

Catholics and Copts Recognize Shared Baptism



But what I went through was very standard especially concerning some of the writings of the previous Coptic pope (Shenouda). In talking to some EO years back this was not just the policy of the Copts but also the EO prior to Metropolitan receiving the Evangelical Orthodox in the late 80s (by just Chrismation).
Interesting. I do think that used to be pretty standard EO policy, but I didn't that it was the reception of the Evangelical Orthodox that was the catalyst for the change
 
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dzheremi

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Well I can point to some articles I just read. I was Lutheran baptized using essentially the old Catholic sprinkling method done in the name of the Trinity, and I was rebaptized in 2004 because it was not a triple immersion.

Well it appears that the Church's position is on the verge of changing on Catholic baptism.


"Pope Francis’s recent trip to Egypt was marked by a surprise announcement. In a joint declaration signed on Friday, April 28, Pope Francis and Coptic Pope Tawadros ii agreed that they would not require rebaptism for Roman Catholics who seek to join the Coptic Orthodox Church, and vice versa.

The Roman Catholic Church baptizes by sprinkling and the Coptic Orthodox Church baptizes by immersion, but this declaration opens the way for the two churches to recognize each other’s baptism sacrament.

Catholics and Copts Recognize Shared Baptism



But what I went through was very standard especially concerning some of the writings of the previous Coptic pope (Shenouda). In talking to some EO years back this was not just the policy of the Copts but also the EO prior to Metropolitan receiving the Evangelical Orthodox in the late 80s (by just Chrismation).

It is not so much a change on the Coptic side as it is a return to the historic practice testified to in the letters of HH Pope St. Timothy II, the successor to our teacher HH St. Dioscorus, who received all from among those who had accepted Chalcedon who wished to have communion with us by profession of faith only, after a suitable period of reflection. This is found in the preserved Syriac translations of his letters, translated by Ebied and Wickham in 1970.

Creating different standards for Eastern and Western Chalcedonians was itself a change, and I was told when I was baptized that if I had been received before the 1800s, it would not have been by the full rite of baptism as it still was then (in 2012).
 
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AMM

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It is not so much a change on the Coptic side as it is a return to the historic practice testified to in the letters of HH Pope St. Timothy II, the successor to our teacher HH St. Dioscorus, who received all from among those who had accepted Chalcedon who wished to have communion with us by profession of faith only, after a suitable period of reflection. This is found in the preserved Syriac translations of his letters, translated by Ebied and Wickham in 1970.

Creating different standards for Eastern and Western Chalcedonians was itself a change, and I was told when I was baptized that if I had been received before the 1800s, it would not have been by the full rite of baptism as it still was then (in 2012).
do the oo ever receive converts by chrismation or is it always either by baptism or by a profession of faith only?
 
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dzheremi

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AMM

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AMM

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They did, in 2015. They now consist of one patriarch, two bishops, one priest, and one deacon. It's rather sad.
Why did they leave? Are they considered "schismatics" now (or the OO equivalent if you all use a different term)? They used to be really pretty large, right?
 
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dzheremi

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This is not an area of expertise of mine, but to the best of my knowledge they were never very large. They were always a single diocese within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate in Europe. What they were was very active, due to the enthusiasm of their priests to evangelize the British isles. Most of their priests and people have left for Orthodoxy, preferring not to follow their former metropolitan Seraphim into what is essentially a 'vagante' organization (to use the Latin term).

I'm not sure they really count as anything in particular now, since they're not in the Church anymore. They asked to be returned to their pre-1994 (pre-union) status, and were granted that. It doesn't really matter, since again most of their people and their clergy left with the split. I have no definite information as to why the change occurred, but from everything I've heard, it was not due to any good considerations or motivations.
 
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AMM

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This is not an area of expertise of mine, but to the best of my knowledge they were never very large. They were always a single diocese within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate in Europe. What they were was very active, due to the enthusiasm of their priests to evangelize the British isles. Most of their priests and people have left for Orthodoxy, preferring not to follow their former metropolitan Seraphim into what is essentially a 'vagante' organization (to use the Latin term).

I'm not sure they really count as anything in particular now, since they're not in the Church anymore. They asked to be returned to their pre-1994 (pre-union) status, and were granted that. It doesn't really matter, since again most of their people and their clergy left with the split. I have no definite information as to why the change occurred, but from everything I've heard, it was not due to any good considerations or motivations.
interesting, thanks for the info. On the semi-related note of very active OO churches -- do you live in the DC area? I went to college literally down the road from St Mark's Coptic Orthodox Church, which seems to have a huge online presence. That was actually my first Orthodox (of both communions) church I'd ever been to - I went one Saturday night for the vespers/vigil and spoke with the priest - months before my first visit to an Eastern Orthodox church
 
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AMM

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Actually, I went back and checked some stuff - I went to St Mark's exactly 3 months to the day before my first visit to an EO church.

Do you happen to know Fr. Domadious Rizk? He is the priest I spoke with but I see that he's not listed on the St Mark's website anymore
 
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dzheremi

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No, I'm not from there, and don't know any priests from there. I'm on the west coast.

St. Mark's in D.C. is very famous for the popularity of some of its priests, but its commitment to Orthodoxy has been questioned by many for years. I don't know about its state now, but I know HG Bishop Suriel of Australia publicly took one of its priests, Fr. Anthony El Meseeh, to task for copying some of the wording in some of his sermons from Protestant pastors, and some time later HH Pope Tawadros sent a group of bishops to the D.C. area to investigate complaints that the D.C. area was home to several churches that were not upholding Orthodoxy.

Other bishops closer to the Church in the USA seem to agree on this, by the way. Here is H.E. Metropolitan Serapion of Los Angeles speaking about the situation in D.C. a few years ago (uploaded to YouTube in 2016; I'm not sure when the talk was given):


I don't know what the result of the Egyptian bishops' report was, however, or how D.C. is now. I know that some other problem areas like Canada now have bishops, however, which is a very good development.
 
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No, I'm not from there, and don't know any priests from there. I'm on the west coast.

St. Mark's in D.C. is very famous for the popularity of some of its priests, but its commitment to Orthodoxy has been questioned by many for years. I don't know about its state now, but I know HG Bishop Suriel of Australia publicly took one of its priests, Fr. Anthony El Meseeh, to task for copying some of the wording in some of his sermons from Protestant pastors, and some time later HH Pope Tawadros sent a group of bishops to the D.C. area to investigate complaints that the D.C. area was home to several churches that were not upholding Orthodoxy.

Other bishops closer to the Church in the USA seem to agree on this, by the way. Here is H.E. Metropolitan Serapion of Los Angeles speaking about the situation in D.C. a few years ago (uploaded to YouTube in 2016; I'm not sure when the talk was given):


I don't know what the result of the Egyptian bishops' report was, however, or how D.C. is now. I know that some other problem areas like Canada now have bishops, however, which is a very good development.
Interesting. I didn't know that. My two experiences there have been very positive and didn't feel "protestant" or anything. The hymns had that character of ancient christianity (rather than some of the shallow protestant songs). The one sermon that I heard seemed fine - I can't recall anything that struck me as particularly "protestant" so hopefully things have improved over the years.

and the presentation was interesting. Especially the stuff about the development of hymns and use of instruments
 
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