Marriage in the Eschaton

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I am Reformed, specifically (semi-)Covenanter Presbyterian. Membership-wise, that puts me about as far from Orthodoxy as the North Pole is from the South. Psalm-singing, Communion with real wine, standing for prayer, offerings collected before the service begins, no imagery whatsoever (especially not of Jesus), no holidays or recurring fast days. That sort of thing. I prefer not to divulge much personally identifiable information beyond that, because I'm very much in the position of a Nicodemus here. In a time of great stress recently, I have found much solace in Orthodoxy and its practices, and for the present time I would prefer my coreligionists did not know that I think I may make the switch. So I may have many questions on here in the future.

But the question that pesters me now is the Orthodox belief that marriage persists after death. I've listened to Dn. Michael Hyatt's explanation of Lk. 20, but it still seems pretty clear to me that Jesus is saying the bonds of marriage are broken in death. Can someone please clarify the Orthodox understanding of the passage? Thanks in advance.
 

Hidden In Him

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2017
3,426
2,845
59
Lafayette, LA
✟544,986.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh my, that moth looks evil. Your scaring the children. please find some other picture. mothcorrupts is a fine name.
But that picture can give lil jane or johnny in preschool , nightmares till will into their teens.

Yep. I've seen some bad ones, but that one's pretty bad. I think the mods will agree, so you'd better change it.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am Reformed, specifically (semi-)Covenanter Presbyterian. Membership-wise, that puts me about as far from Orthodoxy as the North Pole is from the South. Psalm-singing, Communion with real wine, standing for prayer, offerings collected before the service begins, no imagery whatsoever (especially not of Jesus), no holidays or recurring fast days. That sort of thing. I prefer not to divulge much personally identifiable information beyond that, because I'm very much in the position of a Nicodemus here. In a time of great stress recently, I have found much solace in Orthodoxy and its practices, and for the present time I would prefer my coreligionists did not know that I think I may make the switch. So I may have many questions on here in the future.

But the question that pesters me now is the Orthodox belief that marriage persists after death. I've listened to Dn. Michael Hyatt's explanation of Lk. 20, but it still seems pretty clear to me that Jesus is saying the bonds of marriage are broken in death. Can someone please clarify the Orthodox understanding of the passage? Thanks in advance.

Hello, and welcome to CF, and to TAW.

I am sorry to hear you've been having difficulties, and I understand your caution. I hope you are able to continue to find solace with us. Prayers for you.

BTW, we sing psalms, and have communion with real wine, and stand for prayer (mostly) ... ;)

But as for marriage, let me explain it this way. If you and your mother, or you and your child, are both in heaven (the new earth actually) ... don't you expect you will still love them? The marriage relationship is simply that. It only means that bonds of love created while on earth, whether with parent, children, spouse, close friends, or grandparents, etc ... will persist in the eschaton.

But you are correct that "the marriage relationship" as in procreation, sexual activity, etc. are not part of the eschaton, as far as we have been told. I hope that helps?

But indeed, many times Orthodox choose not to remarry after the death of a spouse. They are certainly free to do so, with the blessing of the Church. But we are so aware of the continued existence of those who have reposed that I suppose some don't wish to hurry to "replace" a beloved spouse who has died.

God be with you.
 
Upvote 0

tstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2017
667
592
Maryland
✟45,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Celibate
Oh my, that moth looks evil. Your scaring the children. please find some other picture. mothcorrupts is a fine name.
But that picture can give lil jane or johnny in preschool , nightmares till will into their teens.
There are not children on this forum. From the rules of the website: "You must be 16 years of age to join Christian Forums."
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
BTW, we sing psalms, and have communion with real wine, and stand for prayer (mostly) ... ;)
Ah, yes. I know. In Covenanter circles we sing ONLY psalms, unedited. We also do not mix the wine with water. And we sit for all things other than prayer, call to worship, and benediction. But I was really more or less trying to illustrate the level of strictness in ordering everything by Scripture alone. Four bare walls and a pulpit and all that. The attitude is opposite, if not always the precise forms.

But as for marriage, let me explain it this way. If you and your mother, or you and your child, are both in heaven (the new earth actually) ... don't you expect you will still love them? The marriage relationship is simply that. It only means that bonds of love created while on earth, whether with parent, children, spouse, close friends, or grandparents, etc ... will persist in the eschaton.

But you are correct that "the marriage relationship" as in procreation, sexual activity, etc. are not part of the eschaton, as far as we have been told. I hope that helps?
Not exactly. What I'm looking for is more how Orthodoxy explains the fact that Jesus is apparently teaching that the marriage relationship--not the sexuality--is completely dissolved upon death. Same goes for Paul in his analogy with the Law. I understand the rationality of supposing that our earthly relations, including marriage, continue. What I do not understand is how that is reconciled with "The children of this world marry wives, and are married. But they which shall be counted worthy to enjoy that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry wives, neither are married" (1599 Geneva). Hyatt says that the point of the passage is more that Jesus is answering the Sadducees and not making an abstract theological statement, but he does not elaborate, nor does the Orthodox Study Bible. I was hoping someone here could.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Ah, yes. I know. In Covenanter circles we sing ONLY psalms, unedited. We also do not mix the wine with water. And we sit for all things other than prayer, call to worship, and benediction. But I was really more or less trying to illustrate the level of strictness in ordering everything by Scripture alone. Four bare walls and a pulpit and all that. The attitude is opposite, if not always the precise forms.

Ah, I see what you are saying then. That's not a group I'm intimately familiar with, so I didn't initially appreciate the distinctions you were making.

Not exactly. What I'm looking for is more how Orthodoxy explains the fact that Jesus is apparently teaching that the marriage relationship--not the sexuality--is completely dissolved upon death. Same goes for Paul in his analogy with the Law. I understand the rationality of supposing that our earthly relations, including marriage, continue. What I do not understand is how that is reconciled with "The children of this world marry wives, and are married. But they which shall be counted worthy to enjoy that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry wives, neither are married" (1599 Geneva). Hyatt says that the point of the passage is more that Jesus is answering the Sadducees and not making an abstract theological statement, but he does not elaborate, nor does the Orthodox Study Bible. I was hoping someone here could.

Hmmmmm. I'm not familiar with the exact quote you're asking about. Hopefully someone else will be. I'm not even familiar with Hyatt.

But I have heard a number of priests teaching on this, and studied a bit in particular. I have never heard any indication that the relationship between husband and wife is necessarily anything more or different from any other close bond.

I will speak from my own mind, and not that of the Church specifically, but just within what I eunderstand the ethos of the Church to be. Consider that a married couple can spend many decades living together, ideally seeking God together, sacrificing for and loving one another. We have our children, siblings, or our parents in our homes for a limited time. But we may share our lives with our spouses. Now, I don't know what either living arrangements (if there are any) or time spent will be like in the eschaton. But ... again, this is just me ... it is entirely possible in my mind that if we choose so, we could probably retain a certain close cooperation and companionship with those we love, and the marriage relationship is a particular kind of cooperation. After all, God says we "become one flesh" (and I think that has spiritual significance, I'm not referring to a sexual sense in this case).

But still, it is not so different from maintaining other relationships. But the longevity of the marriage relationship, and the kind of special cooperation therein, might have a particular significance.

But I'm sure it's not an absolute. As I said, the Church certainly blesses remarriage of a widow or widower. If we did consider the marriage relationship in the sense of being permanent in the eschaton, that wouldn't be.

But if this doesn't answer your question, please let us know. Many others here know better than I. :)
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,549
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,463,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
the physical side of marriage ends, as our bodies are transfigured and the fallen mode of reproduction is done away with. however, since the person remains, that means that relationship also remains with the other, although transfigured and glorified. so in the Kingdom my wife remains my wife (Godwilling we both make it) although how that is expressed is changed and far better than the physical relation we have now.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
the physical side of marriage ends, as our bodies are transfigured and the fallen mode of reproduction is done away with. however, since the person remains, that means that relationship also remains with the other, although transfigured and glorified. so in the Kingdom my wife remains my wife (Godwilling we both make it) although how that is expressed is changed and far better than the physical relation we have now.
That is more or less what I understood Hyatt to be saying. However, to quote him exactly,
Michael Hyatt said:
Orthodox Christianity says that marriage is forever. The Pharisees taught this anciently. In fact, you'll remember the Sadducees mocked them over this teaching in Matthew 22:23-33. And in fact, some Protestants use this as a proof text that marriage isn't forever. But, in point of fact, that was not Jesus' intent in that passage. He was basically talking about the Resurrection. And he was trying to prove to the Sadducees that the Resurrection was real... To look at it another way, Sacraments can't be undone. The greatest Sacrament of all, the Sacrament of Sacraments, was the Incarnation, in which the Word became flesh. Even this is not undone by death, so that today, at the right hand of the Father is the God-man, Jesus Christ, who will remain so forever, eternally God and man. In like manner, in the Sacrament of marriage, the two become one flesh; this is not undone by death. This is forever.
He says this in Episode 6 of the Ancient Faith podcast "At the Intersection of East and West" beginning at the 13:30 mark and continuing to 16:35.
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Yep. I've seen some bad ones, but that one's pretty bad. I think the mods will agree, so you'd better change it.
It's a fly, actually. M83. The band created it as a nod to The Neverending Story, since their style is synthpop and it fit the time. If the mods want to hate on a modern classic of German children's literature and film in the neverending (see what I did there?) quest to top 1999's Fundamentalist hysteria over Pokémon, I invite them to.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,549
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,463,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is more or less what I understood Hyatt to be saying. However, to quote him exactly,

He says this in Episode 6 of the Ancient Faith podcast "At the Intersection of East and West" beginning at the 13:30 mark and continuing to 16:35.

yeah that is basically my understanding. marriage in this life is, after all, to prepare us to meet our heavenly Bridegroom
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
yeah that is basically my understanding. marriage in this life is, after all, to prepare us to meet our heavenly Bridegroom
But are you able to clarify his interpretation of the Scriptures?
 
Upvote 0

mothcorrupteth

Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik
Jun 3, 2017
498
439
38
Huntsville, AL
✟42,344.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I mean, how does the context of the Resurrection nullify that Jesus seems to be basing his argument on what he states as fact--that in the resurrection people neither marry nor are given in marriage? I realize that what he literally says does not negate the idea of eternal marriage, but given that it's a response to the riddle of the woman who serially marries seven men, I don't see how Jesus could not be saying that all those earthly marriages will be dissolved.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums