Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[HuntingMan]

regardless, the Bible was written by many men, inspired by God. God pretty much says the same thing; keep yourself healthy.

If the marriage is killing someone, the Bible demands one to do what neccessary to keep from that hurt spreading further.

also, its not like Jesus doesn't forgive adulterers.

I do agree, but you have to keep in mind that we are discussing these things against legalism that nitpicks at words instead of seeing the truth that God knows the heart.

Many of these folks actually believe that EVERY possible contingency is laid out in scripture, thus their inability to understand how to apply the spirit of the WHOLE of Gods word to any situation not clearly laid out therein.

You see many who say you can ONLY divorce for adultery or abandonment by the believer.
Legalism.
They literally think that our Lord and Paul were actually detailing EVERY possible reason why a marriage covenant might be ended, instead of understanding that NO writing could possibly contain every imaginable offense against the marriage covenant unless it were far many more pages.

By the ideas of some of these it is permissible to divorce for abandonment, yet if a spouse is literally trying to kill us... "sorry, scripture doesnt say you can divorce".

They have missed the point entirely, and so it is really pointless arguing against them, its better for you and I simply to understand that these must do as they do, and we must be ready to help our brothers and sisters who are in need where we can help...and to protect them from this legalism...

 

[ShermanN]

Originally Posted by SealedEternal
People who post long explanations about what scripture says rather than scripture itself, want you to be confused. If you want the truth you should look to God's Word rather than the opinions of men.

Reminds me of a subtitle I saw of another CF poster~ 'If you can't beat 'em, confuse 'em!

Understanding, interpreting, and applying scripture cannot be relegated to commersial "sound-bites". And "proof-texting" proves nothing except that, "A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an assumed meaning that often misses the authors intent."

 

[mpok1519]

Well, I'm sure God thinks we should worry about things that affects us more than the nitpickey contingencies.

 

[HuntingMan]

Well, I'm sure God thinks we should worry about things that affects us more than the nitpickey contingencies.

Gods word says it all, brother....

Mat 12:7 KJV But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

The silly saying "can`t see the forest for the trees" rings true.
Some spend so much time scrutinizing each tree that they miss the beauty of the forest as a whole or the harmony therein.

I do agree wholesale with Shermans thought that remarriage was never the issue...still isnt.
From my studies I can see clearly that remarriage is assumed except in the odd cases that it is expressly forbidden.
In this covenant that would only be where two believers have frivolously ended their marriage (1 cor 7:10-11) and also those marriages that are deemed as 'unlawful' in Gods law...(ie, marrying a fathers wife comes to mind (1 cor 5:1-*).

Remarriage after divorce otherwise is assumed.
Some confuse the fact that Jesus is simply assigning guilt to the act of frivolous divorce in the Gospels (where Moses had not done so) so that these men understood that now they WERE sinning by throwing out their wives for no good reason (and also failing to provide a writ of divorce as required in the law) and so they condemn ALL remarriage where Jesus did not.

 

[tqpix]

but if someone is in an abusive relationship by all means they should leave, by means of separation or divorce, regardless of what the Bible suggests one do.

I don't think it's wise to do anything in life "regardless of what the Bible suggests (or commands) one do."

SealedEternal

I agree. An abusive relationship requires a divorce. That way, the woman would not be bound by the law to her husband.

 

[HuntingMan]

I agree. An abusive relationship requires a divorce. That way, the woman would not be bound by the law to her husband.

Im REALLY confused.
You say 'divorce' ?

But arent you and fated both catholics who believe that there is no allowance for 'divorce' anymore?

Sorry, Im just lost here

 

[HuntingMan]

Gangs all here...
Round 563

 

[SealedEternal]

Originally Posted by SealedEternal
People who post long explanations about what scripture says rather than scripture itself, want you to be confused. If you want the truth you should look to God's Word rather than the opinions of men.



Understanding, interpreting, and applying scripture cannot be relegated to commersial "sound-bites". And "proof-texting" proves nothing except that, "A Text without a Context is a Pretext - an assumed meaning that often misses the authors intent."

Scripture is supposed to be the proof that Christians use. You and HuntingMan on the other hand normally take a scripture or two out of the context of the rest of the Bible and after paragraph upon paragraph of your explanations, end up claiming that it means something totally different from what it says. That is not Bible interpretation, it is twisting God's Word to fit a preconceived agenda.

What could Jesus' intent possibly be when He said "Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery, or Paul when he said that "the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress"? These are clear and straightforward statements that can only mean one thing, yet when you are finished giving a long complicated explanation you claim that the meaning is something totally different.

When a person quotes God's Word it is not a "sound bite" unless they are taking it out of the context which it is written to change its meaning. These verses however are not out of context:

Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'

Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."

1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.



These are God's Words and are simple and straightforward enough for anyone to understand. People don't need some "expert" to write a long dissertation to explain why they don't mean what they say. God has written it to all of us in a way that we can all understand.

Just as with the Pharisees however, we have modern people who profess to be the experts and claim that people cannot understand scripture apart from their long writings. God never appointed the Pharisees to be His interpreters of the Old Covenant, and He has not appointed any for the New either.

The verses above are the primary scriptures from the Bible on the issue of marriage divorce and remarriage. They are a clear and consistent message that require no explanation. It is false teachers who cannot deal with the scriptures themselves without isolating them so they can try to twist them around and get around them. When someone presents them all at once, and scripture alone, they have no answers because God speaks for Himself and there is no way around them. Instead they resort to false accusations of "proof-texting." If it's wrong to post God's Words to make my case, then let me be guilty.

SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

deleted...

 

[fated]

Im REALLY confused.
You say 'divorce' ?

But arent you and fated both catholics who believe that there is no allowance for 'divorce' anymore?

Sorry, Im just lost here

Divorce is a "secular" term.

 

[fated]

You state emphatically that putting away ones spouse in cases of adultery is always allowed. I cannot agree. As much as I feel for those who have so much difficulty moving on after an affair, I just cannot agree that it is, in every case, the right thing to do (that is to exercise you ability to divorce).

Nor do I agree that that is what Scripture "explicitly" says. Nor can I agree that you have every right to proclaim it as a right hundreds of years after most everyone accepted it as otherwise.

 

[HuntingMan]

deleted...combined with another post

 

[HuntingMan]

Divorce is a "secular" term.

That didnt asnwer my question.
And I was asking it of the other poster...please let THEM answer what I asked

 

[fated]

In many cases where children are involved and the spouse asks to be reconciled, it seems that the best thing to do would be to suck it up and get back in the game.

But, certainly, there are circumstances when one can legally distance themselves from their spouses for legitimate reasons like grave concerns for their children and themselves.

Part of this issue stems from the loss of fertility in many "modern western" families, which can certainly make the "spiritual" marriage invalid from the start. It is a self centered thing with basic problems.

 

[HuntingMan]

just as with the giving to EVERYONE who asks, there is more to the story than just spouting out random verses...

Genesis 2:22-24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

What is ''one flesh'' and what is it that God joins together?

Matthew 5:31-33 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'

Are vows always ''unbreakable"

Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

interesting that PAUL CLEARLY gives instruction to do just that

The "cannot put asunder" fallacy


Paul himself INSTRUCTS the believer to allow the unbeliever to do EXACTLY what you say Jesus told man NOT to do....
Seems you have a contradiction to deal with, chap

Mark 10:5-12 But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment."But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE."FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." In the house the disciples began

Again...

The "cannot put asunder" fallacy

PAUL himself instructs the believer to LET the unbeliever to 'put asunder' (Chorizo...same as Jesus words) the marriage.
So yes, even tho God doesnt like for it to happen, He ACCEPTS that it does on occasion..

questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."


Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery."

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
(Mat 5:31-32 KJV)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)

1 Corinthians 7:10-13 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

Does the bible permit putting away a spouse for abuse?

"Remain Unmarried or reconcile” vs "not in bondage"

I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

The wife is bound by law until the husband is dead

Moses...the biggest sinner and lawbreaker of all time !!

The conditional marriage covenant.

Evidences of divorce and remarriage in the Church

When is a marriage ''dissolved''

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.

"Bound by law " vs "not in bondage"

 

[fated]

heres the FACTS David.
Jesus gave EXCEPTION....you dont have to like it, but its FACT
Paul also gave exception...again, you dont have to like it but its FACT
There IS clear evidence of REmarried divorcees in the church...FACT ('having been the wife of ONE man")

No, most of us see much of the philosophy of this thread as heresy, relativism, and compromised morality.

You are blind to even comprehend that there is another valid opinion, much less to even attempt to consider which perspective is "more" valid.

You seem to regard your own ability to interpret the meaning of the scripture to be greater than those who came before you and warned others of your moral folly.

Many people are attracted to Catholic and Orthodox marriage -BECAUSE- of its Sacramental value, which you deny, so that it can be less special and disolvable. Well, maybe you were just taught to deny it. "Whoever should cause one of these (children) to sin..."

 

[HuntingMan]

These are God's Words and are simple and straightforward enough for anyone to understand.People don't need some "expert" to write a long dissertation to explain why they don't mean what they say. God has written it to all of us in a way that we can all understand. [/COLOR]

SealedEternal

Fair enough David.

THESE also are "God's Words and are simple and straightforward enough for anyone to understand" as you say...

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Im ASKING you for $500.
Are you going to OBEY the Lord Jesus or make up excuses not to?

The verses above are the primary scriptures from the Bible on the issue of marriage divorce and remarriage. They are a clear and consistent message that require no explanation. It is false teachers who cannot deal with the scriptures themselves without isolating them so they can try to twist them around and get around them. When someone presents them all at once, and scripture alone, they have no answers because God speaks for Himself and there is no way around them. Instead they resort to false accusations of "proof-texting." If it's wrong to post God's Words to make my case, then let me be guilty.

Hardly chap.

Just as you will escape sending me the $500 I ASKED your for using some sort of "loophole" to prevent you from doing so, we accept the FACT that Jesus Christ (aka GOD) gave exception whereby adultery is NOT committed upon remarriage.

This exception for fornication is the EXACT type of treachery against the marriage covnenant that Israel committed against GODs covenant with them that caused HIM (GOD) to end that covenant with them.

Jesus exception is in PERFECT harmony with the very same reason He (GOD) ended His own covenant with Israel.

God never changes. Harlotry IS a breach of covenant that is just cause for ending said covenant.

It is only your perversion of Deut 22/Deut 24 that causes you to fail to understand this fact.

heres the FACTS David.
Jesus gave EXCEPTION....you dont have to like it, but its FACT
Paul also gave exception...again, you dont have to like it but its FACT
There IS clear evidence of REmarried divorcees in the church...FACT ('having been the wife of ONE man")

not to mention that this 'law of the husband' CANNOT be unconditional as you need it to be

to be continued.....

 

[HuntingMan]

No, most of us see much of the philosophy of this thread as heresy, relativism, and compromised morality.

You seem to think that it matters to me what some here think and choose to believe.

You are blind to even comprehend that there is another valid opinion, much less to even attempt to consider which perspective is "more" valid.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

You seem to regard your own ability to interpret the meaning of the scripture to be greater than those who came before you and warned others of your moral folly.

Please. There are those who came before me whom I agree pretty much 100% with on this matter.
Those chaps dont agree with you, so of course you dismiss them.

Many people are attracted to Catholic and Orthodox marriage -BECAUSE- of its Sacramental value, which you deny, so that it can be less special and disolvable. Well, maybe you were just taught to deny it. "Whoever should cause one of these (children) to sin..."

Did I tell you that I will not discuss your churches views or doctrines.

Once more you bring up the CC to me on this matter rather than telling me what YOU alone believe and Im putting you on ignore poster.
This is the last warning.
Im NOT allowing you to draw me into a catholic/protestant debate.
The choice is yours as to whether you and I continue to discuss anything on this forum...

 

[fated]

You seem to think that it matters to me what some here think and choose to believe.



Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?


Please. There are those who came before me whom I agree pretty much 100% with on this matter.
Those chaps dont agree with you, so of course you dismiss them.


Did I tell you that I will not discuss your churches views or doctrines.

Once more you bring up the CC to me on this matter rather than telling me what YOU alone believe and Im putting you on ignore poster.
This is the last warning.
Im NOT allowing you to draw me into a catholic/protestant debate.
The choice is yours as to whether you and I continue to discuss anything on this forum...

It is hardly fair to accuse me of not actually believing in a teaching that I certainly ascribe to.

Is it so hard to believe that "divorce" could be indicated because ones partner persists to use birth control despite their spouse protest, and yet that one seeking reconcile for the sin of adultery would have "divorce" contradicted?

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This theology seems like the narrow gate to me. That which you teach seems to be the wide gate, taught, as you mentioned, by many who agree with you.

 

[fated]

In many cases where children are involved and the spouse asks to be reconciled, it seems that the best thing to do would be to suck it up and get back in the game.

But, certainly, there are circumstances when one can legally distance themselves from their spouses for legitimate reasons like grave concerns for their children and themselves.

Part of this issue stems from the loss of fertility in many "modern western" families, which can certainly make the "spiritual" marriage invalid from the start. It is a self centered thing with basic problems.

Matthew 19:
8 He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9 I say to you, 7 whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful or for fornication if you insist) and marries another commits adultery."
10 [His] disciples said to him, "If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
11 He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.

I need not say what I could call invalid marriage. Who the unbelievers "might" be.

Indeed, there can be reasons that a marriage is invalid.

And so the other side of the Way.

11 He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.