Mark of the beast topic - very easy to understand

[BobRyan]

Rev 13 - the plan of the devil - his "end game" for mankind. Includes world-wide civil law enforcing his worship of the beast and image program. "The mark of the beast" given out to those who comply with it.

Rev 14 the plan of God - his "end game - final warning" for mankind. Includes world-wide gospel warning against taking the mark of the beast then ends with the "reaping" of the saints at the second coming (Rapture) and the destruction "reaping" of the wicked that follows.

In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

As contrasted to the wicked who get the mark of the beast and are stuck in sin and rebellion. Breaking God's commandments.

=======================
Question: what forms of breaking God's commandments are common today?

Abortion -
SSM
inappropriate content, adultery etc.
Worship of pagan idols etc.

All of them bad, all sin... and all are not future but rather have been around for 1000's of years.

What then is "Future"?

It is the Rev 13 CIVIL enforcement world-wide regarding one specific sin - the worship of the beast and his image.

The end-time issue is worship according to Rev 13 and Rev 14.

If you think about it - this is the only sin among the ten commandments that governments and civil laws could possibly mandate that you do -- or else they would remove your ability to buy or sell or kill you.

For example - they could never have a law saying "you must dishonor your parents or we will remove your ability to buy or sell".

Same with adultery, murder, lying, stealing. There will never be a law saying "everyone must rob a bank or we will kill you"...

=============================

Only one sin could be world-wide and enforced via civil law enforced by capital punishment-- and that is the sin of worshiping in some way in opposition to God's Commandments.

 

[mark kennedy]

Rev 13 - the plan of the devil - his "end game" for mankind. Includes world-wide civil law enforcing his worship of the beast and image program. "The mark of the beast" given out to those who comply with it.

Rev 14 the plan of God - his "end game - final warning" for mankind. Includes world-wide gospel warning against taking the mark of the beast then ends with the "reaping" of the saints at the second coming (Rapture) and the destruction "reaping" of the wicked that follows.

In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

As contrasted to the wicked who get the mark of the beast and are stuck in sin and rebellion. Breaking God's commandments.

=======================
Question: what forms of breaking God's commandments are common today?

Abortion -
SSM
inappropriate content, adultery etc.
Worship of pagan idols etc.

All of them bad, all sin... and all are not future but rather have been around for 1000's of years.

What then is "Future"?

It is the Rev 13 CIVIL enforcement world-wide regarding one specific sin - the worship of the beast and his image.

The end-time issue is worship according to Rev 13 and Rev 14.

If you think about it - this is the only sin among the ten commandments that governments and civil laws could possibly mandate that you do -- or else they would remove your ability to buy or sell or kill you.

For example - they could never have a law saying "you must dishonor your parents or we will remove your ability to buy or sell".

Same with adultery, murder, lying, stealing. There will never be a law saying "everyone must rob a bank or we will kill you"...

=============================

Only one sin could be world-wide and enforced via civil law enforced by capital punishment-- and that is the sin of worshiping in some way in opposition to God's Commandments.

The number of his name is 666, in other words add up the numerical equivalent and it adds up to 666. That formula isn't really for us, it's one of those things people will figure out and realize in the tribulation, God predicted it long ago. The rule of thumb for the significance of numbers in Scripture is you go back to the first mention in Scripture. That's the sixth day of creation, the creation of man and beasts of the field. The passage says it's the number of a man, which it is, but it lacks the definite article. Literally, it's the number of man, the number of the beast.

Ok, that's a little of the literary background. So the context, look at the scene. Imagine a stormy sea, standing on the shore is the lamb that speaks like a dragon, hovering above the deep is a great read dragon. The beast emerges with heads like lions...etc. then the sea begins to turn into a crowd and the scene is a giant amphitheater with the crowd chanting, who is like the beast, who can make war with the beast. They have went from cowering in caves and dens of the rocks to hide from the wrath of God, to following a man who breaths out blasphemy with every breath. They have endured the Trumpet blasts and now they have gathered together to celebrate the fact that their leader has, as far as anyone knows, came back from a deadly wound.

Look around, there are guillotines, weapons of war everywhere, debauchery of all kinds. The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy. What the is exactly we don't know; a mystical formula, some numbering system, perhaps some kind of occult symbolism, a micro chip, a tattoo, does it really matter? What it means when you receive it is you will have a place in the lake of fire and no one in attendance cares.

Israel has repented, the Antichrist is going to slaughter them, they are picking up weapons, loading their vehicles, moving quickly to deny God his prize, the nation of Israel.

That's Grecian theater, that's the narrative that defines the number of the beast. It's us, in open rebellion against God.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 13 - the plan of the devil - his "end game" for mankind. Includes world-wide civil law enforcing his worship of the beast and image program. "The mark of the beast" given out to those who comply with it.

Rev 14 the plan of God - his "end game - final warning" for mankind. Includes world-wide gospel warning against taking the mark of the beast then ends with the "reaping" of the saints at the second coming (Rapture) and the destruction "reaping" of the wicked that follows.

In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

As contrasted to the wicked who get the mark of the beast and are stuck in sin and rebellion. Breaking God's commandments.

=======================
Question: what forms of breaking God's commandments are common today?

Abortion -
SSM
inappropriate content, adultery etc.
Worship of pagan idols etc.

All of them bad, all sin... and all are not future but rather have been around for 1000's of years.

What then is "Future"?

It is the Rev 13 CIVIL enforcement world-wide regarding one specific sin - the worship of the beast and his image.

The end-time issue is worship according to Rev 13 and Rev 14.

If you think about it - this is the only sin among the ten commandments that governments and civil laws could possibly mandate that you do -- or else they would remove your ability to buy or sell or kill you.

For example - they could never have a law saying "you must dishonor your parents or we will remove your ability to buy or sell".

Same with adultery, murder, lying, stealing. There will never be a law saying "everyone must rob a bank or we will kill you"...

=============================

Only one sin could be world-wide and enforced via civil law enforced by capital punishment-- and that is the sin of worshiping in some way in opposition to God's Commandments.

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　
Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　
Gal 4:26　 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.　
Gal 4:27　 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."　
Gal 4:28　 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.　
Gal 4:29　 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.　
Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Cast out the Sinai Covenant of bondage.
　



2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?　


Let go of the ministry of death written on stones.



Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　
Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　



Quit trying to climb the mountain that burned with fire and come to the New Covenant of Mount Zion, instead.

.

 

[BobRyan]

The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy. .

1. I don't know of a single text saying that "The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - where did you get that?
2. Remember almost the entire "mark of the beast" subject is in just 8 verses in Rev 13:11-18.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　
Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—　
Gal 4:26　 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.　
Gal 4:27　 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."　

.

Gal 4 is another topic... we are not discussing your view of Gal 4. (Though we do notice that Gal 4 says absolutely nothing about the mark of the beast). -- we are talking about Rev 13 that describes "the details" of the subject of this thread. The mark of the beast. And Rev 14 that also speaks to that same subject.

We now return to the focus of the thread - "the mark of the beast" - in Rev 13 and 14.

 

[mark kennedy]

1. I don't know of a single text saying that "The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - where did you get that?
2. Remember almost the entire "mark of the beast" subject is in just 8 verses in Rev 13:11-18.

The multiplication of humanity is from the sea he is rising out of, I see a connection. The mark itself is probably incidental, the significance is highly over rated. It lacks the definite article so more accurately it might read, it's the number of man.

 

[BobRyan]

The multiplication of humanity is from the sea he is rising out of, I see a connection. The mark itself is probably incidental, the significance is highly over rated. It lacks the definite article so more accurately it might read, it's the number of man.

The text is focused on the mark of the beast - and the number of his name - "the number of a man". You have speculated that 666 means "people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - but the text says nothing like that. You can have your preferences on that point -

But as far as the text...
1. I don't know of a single text saying that "The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - where did you get that?
2. Remember almost the entire "mark of the beast" subject is in just 8 verses in Rev 13:11-18.

You say that the "waters" are "people, tribes, languages and nations," and certainly that is true "Because the text says it" for example in Rev 17.

But the text does not say that the multitudes are "666" or the 'number of a man' etc.

 

[mark kennedy]

First of all slow down Bob, where on the same team here.

The text is focused on the mark of the beast - and the number of his name - "the number of a man". You have speculated that 666 means "people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - but the text says nothing like that. You can have your preferences on that point -

I was describing the context leading up to this statement:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev. 13:18)​

In verse 1 of that chapter it describes the sea the beast is rising out of, And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (Rev. 13:1). The interpretation of that sea is in chapter 17, And he saith unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Rev. 17:15)

I was trying to point out the sea is a mass of humanity and I see certain ways in which it helps to understand that number. My interest was the context of that dramatic scene of the beast rising out of a sea of humanity with Babylon on his back.

But as far as the text...
1. I don't know of a single text saying that "The 666 is people, tribes, languages and nations, it's amplified humanity working itself up into a demonically inspired frenzy" - where did you get that?
2. Remember almost the entire "mark of the beast" subject is in just 8 verses in Rev 13:11-18.

You say that the "waters" are "people, tribes, languages and nations," and certainly that is true "Because the text says it" for example in Rev 17.

But the text does not say that the multitudes are "666" or the 'number of a man' etc.

I thought it was insightful, I've long believed the significance of the number won't be understood completely until some time in the tribulation. Just exploring the literary features here.

Personally I'm far more intrigued by the sheer pandemonium of the event then any formula applied to the number of his name.

 

[BABerean2]

Gal 4 is another topic... we are not discussing your view of Gal 4.

'
It would be the Apostle Paul's view of the relationship between the New Covenant and the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai Covenant, which you cannot let go of.


Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


You attempt to ignore the fact that there two different sets of commandments found below in the words of Christ.

Joh 15:10　 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.



All false doctrines are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

1Jn 3:22　 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.　

1Jn 3:23　 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.　

1Jn 3:24　 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
　

Let go of the bondwoman's covenant of bondage, which is the ministry of death, written on stones.

Based on Hebrews 12:18-24, you have never climbed Mount Sinai and never will.

.

 

[BobRyan]

'
It would be the Apostle Paul's view of the relationship between the New Covenant and the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 8:13) Sinai Covenant, which you cannot let go of.

A false statement.
And not even remotely the subject of this thread. We are discussing Revelation 13 and 14.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

A lot of New Covenant Christians on this board will agree with it. As it turns out.

Jer 31
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Not sure if your claiming to be one of them or not - but Rev 22 and Rev 14 do speak of the saints "keeping the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- is this the text you are objecting too?

Many Christians here will not object to it - so let's continue with the subject of the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

First of all slow down Bob, where on the same team here.

I was describing the context leading up to this statement:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev. 13:18)​

In verse 1 of that chapter it describes the sea the beast is rising out of, And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea (Rev. 13:1). The interpretation of that sea is in chapter 17, And he saith unto me, The waters which thou saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. (Rev. 17:15)

I do agree with that. Just don't see any place where 666 is also a symbol for that same thing.

I was trying to point out the sea is a mass of humanity and I see certain ways in which it helps to understand that number. My interest was the context of that dramatic scene of the beast rising out of a sea of humanity with Babylon on his back.

I thought it was insightful, I've long believed the significance of the number won't be understood completely until some time in the tribulation. Just exploring the literary features here.

Personally I'm far more intrigued by the sheer pandemonium of the event then any formula applied to the number of his name.

The "number of his name" is the phrase used in the text.

16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

It is given as an "identifier" - so one of many clues in the chapter helping to identify the beast.

 

[victorinus]

the vast majority of products sold today have a mark
-and-
that mark is the date of origin

 

[BABerean2]

Not sure if your claiming to be one of them or not - but Rev 22 and Rev 14 do speak of the saints "keeping the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" -- is this the text you are objecting too?

Many Christians here will not object to it - so let's continue with the subject of the thread.

I am objecting to your claim that we are still under the 10 commandments, which Paul describes in Galatians chapter 4 as the covenant of "bondage", and in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 as "the ministry of death written on stones", and your SDA doctrine which claims that Sunday worship is "the mark of the beast".

How can a Christian not be a New Covenant Christian, since the Greek word "diakathe" can be translated as either "covenant" or "testament"?

.

 

[BobRyan]

I am objecting to your claim that we are still under the 10 commandments,

.

Is it your claim that I wrote Ephesians 6:2 or Romans 3:31??


1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law"

Romans 6 - what it truly means to be freed from sin.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

...
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed


Bottom line - it is "still wrong to take God's name in vain" as even D.L. Moody, Baptist Confession of Faith (sectn 19) and Westminster Confession of Faith (sectn 19) and the Catholic documents Dies Domini, and "The Faith Explained" all affirm the NEW COVENANT having the the moral law of God written on the heart - which includes the Rev 14:12 "Commanmdents of God" written on stone in the old covenant and written on the "tablets of the heart" in the New.

 

[BABerean2]

the NEW COVENANT having the the moral law of God written on the heart - which includes the Rev 14:12 "Commanmdents of God" written on stone in the old covenant and written on the "tablets of the heart" in the New.

Your claim that "the moral law", which is a term not found in the Bible, means that the New Covenant is the Sinai Covenant written in a different place falls apart in the following scripture.

In the passages below there is a clear contrast between the covenant of bondage and death written on stones, with the New Covenant.

Therefore, they cannot be one and the same simply written in a different place.


2Co 3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.　
2Co 3:7　 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,　
2Co 3:8　 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


　
Gal 4:24　 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—　
Gal 4:25　 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

　
Gal 4:30　 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."　
Gal 4:31　 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.　



Heb 12:18　 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,　
Heb 12:19　 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.　
Heb 12:20　 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."　
Heb 12:21　 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")　
Heb 12:22　 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,　
Heb 12:23　 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,　
Heb 12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.　


You have failed to "cast out" the covenant of the bondwoman and continue to insist that you can climb the mountain that burned with fire.

.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Question: what forms of breaking God's commandments are common today?

Every commandment is broken every day in and by the world/ society. Wickednesses are overwhelming everywhere upon the earth. Even what the world calls good and great, is sinful and harmful and an abomination or at best called trash(conservatively polite term for the original) by the Creator of all.
i.e. the enemy is very active, running all society.