Mark of Shiva???

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isshinwhat

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Actually, I would say you are confusing several different incidents here. The lady who annointed the Holy Father may or may not have been Catholic, but she offered the Tika, which is the red powdery stuff that traditionally is offered by the adorers of Shiva. Whether or not she was Roman Catholic is beside the point, first of all, since when do laywomen anoint Popes, and since when is such a sacramental considered Christian?


I would like to make this point a separate thread because I have heard it batted around as fact for far too long.

The following extract is from James Akin's "The Nazareth Resource Library"
"Q: Someone in the schismatic group the Society of St. Pius X told me that when the Pope was in India he had his forehead anointed by a Hindu 'priestess of Shiva' and that there is a photo to prove it. Is this true?

"A: There is a photo of the pope having his forehead anointed by an Indian woman, but, she was a Catholic, not a Hindu priestess! She was giving a traditional Indian form of greeting known as 'Aarti,' which has no more religious significance than a handshake in western culture or giving someone a wreath of flowers as a welcome in Hawaii.

"A letter dated November 22, 1994 from the Pontifical Council for Social Communications explains the custom and its role in Indian society:

" 'Indian Catholics...use "Aarti" when a child returns home after receiving First Holy Communion, and when a newly married couple are received by their respective families. Nowadays, "Aarti" is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at a liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph. On such occasions, "Aarti" is usually offered by a Catholic married lady, and certainly not by a "priestess of Shiva" as has been alleged.'

"The letter, by Archbishop John P. Foley, president of the pontifical council, went on to note: 'Use of the "Aarti" ceremonial by Indian Catholics is no more the worship of a heathen deity than is the decoration of the Christmas tree by American Christians a return to the pagan rituals of Northern Europe.'

"Your schismatic friend in the Society of St Pius X should check his facts before spreading such malicious gossip about the Holy Father (cf. Acts 23:1-5). He was simply about to say Mass and received the traditional Indian form of greeting for the celebrant."
aarti.jpg


His Holiness POPE JOHN PAUL II, a document was prepared by Piero Marini, Titular Bishop of Martirano, Master of Papal Liturgical Celebrations. The document was dated 23 October, 1999. The following is a small extract:
"...The Votive Mass of Christ the Light of the World is being celebrated precisely because the whole of India celebrates the Festival of Lights on 7 November. It is a happy coincidence.

"The festival is so called because of the illuminations that form its main attraction. The month of Karttika (the lunar month coming between October and November is the twelfth of the year), the most favourable time and atmosphere in the whole cosmos for a great celebration encompassing God, neighbour and nature in harmony.

"This month marks the end of rains and the beginning of new life; people of all walks of life begin afresh. People have time to build up their divine and human relationship under the benign gaze of nature. In the backdrop of this holistic atmosphere the ancestors of India started the non-sectarian feast of lights to celebrate life and thank God for all his blessings and the righteousness of his dealings with human beings.

"The Christian relevance of this festival of lights may be conceived thus: Jesus, who is the light of the world (Jn 8:12), by his death-resurrection-ascension, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, transferred us from the grip and Kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light (1 Pt 2:9) and made us 'Children of the light'. Paul says: 'Live as children of the light' (Eph 5:8).

"The Gospel imperative is therefore: Let your light shine so that all people may glorify God. Jesus says: 'you are the light of the world' (Mt 5:14). Christians celebrate this feast to thank God for this wonderful gift.

"Adaptations for India:

"The Mass at the Stadium will have three Indian dances. Two will be at the entrance. The first will be a tribal dance leading the priests and bishops to the podium before the arrival of the Holy Father.

"The second will be a prayer dance leading the Cardinals after the arrival of the Pope into the Stadium.

"The third will be an offertory dance leading the persons with the offertory gifts to the altar.

"At the Doxology when the Holy Father takes the chalice and paten with the host, the Aarati, which is a sign of veneration, will be performed by a group of young ladies. The Aarati will consist of the following: Pushpa arati, waving a tray of flowers with deepak (light) in the center and the showering of flower petals; Dhupa Aarati-the homage of incense; Deepa Aarati-the homage of light, waving of camphor fire and the ringing of the bell..." (Emphasis added. F.J.L.) (3)



This, surely, is simply an adaption of the principle of inculturation. Several days ago we saw the secular celebration of St. Valentine's Day; it is interesting to see an example here of an earlier adaption of that principle: "Tomorrow - St. Valentine's Day - had its origins in a pagan festival that celebrated an ancient lust lottery, the gruesome death of a Christian bishop and the love life of birds.

"In ancient Rome, the day celebrated Juno, the 'ox-eyed' queen of heaven, goddess of women, marriage and strangely, war.

"Part of the pagan ritual, timed for the start of the European spring when birds began to mate, involved young girls writing their names on pieces of paper and placing them on a drum.

"Boys would draw the names of girls, who would become their lovers until the next annual draw.

"Christian leaders later altered the practice. The lottery system was kept but the girl's names were substituted with the names of saints.

"February 14 became associated with Valentine, a third century Roman pagan who converted to Christianity and may have become a bishop..." (4)

So! Just as what was good in paganism was used and adapted by the Church in the past, so too are Pope John Paul II and the Church endeavoring to adapt in the present time.
http://home.earthlink.net/~grossklas/the_pope_shiva_and_nudity.htm
 

Fiskare

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I think it's dangerous to the Christian Faith for a laywomen to anoint a Christian bishop in any way, shape, or form, which is the first issue- and also these "official" stories don't gel with the stories from the Indian sources from that actual time of the event.

Furthermore, I think there is a lot of compromise with liberalism and worse in this reply and the Fathers and bishops of old would have never allowed this practice and defamation of Christian polity and liturgy to occur. Frankly, although the Indian ritual may have nice intentions, it is not compatible with Christian liturgy, and should have been resisted. It was not recieved from the Fathers!

Still, it is being justified in these artcles by other bishops with a warped sense of loyalty, in my opinion. Simply put, it's not Catholic. Find me the practice - exactly, with a Pope or even another bishop- in the early Church, or even before Vat II or *whatever*, and I'll change my tune.

"From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves." 1 Thess. 5:22
 
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Miss Shelby

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Fiskare said:
Still, it is being justified in these artcles by other bishops with a warped sense of loyalty, in my opinion. Simply put, it's not Catholic. Find me the practice - exactly, with a Pope or even another bishop- in the early Church, or even before Vat II or *whatever*, and I'll change my tune.

"From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves." 1 Thess. 5:22
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Fiskare, whatever that may be, but I would like to remind you that One Bread One Body is a forum for people inquiring about the Catholic faith and have their questions answered by Catholics. It is not a forum in which posters are allowed to challenge our faith in any way shape or form. You don't have to change your tune, but I will ask you to take it elsewhere, in this cirucmstance.

Thanks,

Miss Shelby
CF Moderator
 
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isshinwhat

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...these "official" stories don't gel with the stories from the Indian sources from that actual time of the event.

That may be, however the source quoted from after the picture and including the highlighted material, is from before the Mass was held and is an explination for it.

I believe practices like this are perfectly in line with the Tradition received from the Fathers. The modes for celebration in Europe of Easter, Valentine's Day, Christmas, and Halloween are, I believe, strong evidence of this. Using the symbols that a culture understands to relay the message of Christianity is and has been acceptable to the Church since the beginning. What we are witnessing is the living, organic life of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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nyj

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Fiskare said:
I think it's dangerous to the Christian Faith for a laywomen to anoint a Christian bishop in any way, shape, or form, which is the first issue- and also these "official" stories don't gel with the stories from the Indian sources from that actual time of the event.


1. It was a greeting, not an anointing.
2. Do you have any citations for these original sources you allude to?
 
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Fiskare

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Miss Shelby said:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, Fiskare, whatever that may be, but I would like to remind you that One Bread One Body is a forum for people inquiring about the Catholic faith and have their questions answered by Catholics. It is not a forum in which posters are allowed to challenge our faith in any way shape or form. You don't have to change your tune, but I will ask you to take it elsewhere, in this cirucmstance.

Thanks,

Miss Shelby
CF Moderator
I'm not challenging your faith Shelby. (Unless you feel challenged- but that's not my doing). I am offering your posters the opportunity to clarify a possible misrepresentation- which in my experience is very beneficial. However, if you feel that an inquiry such as this is unwarranted, I'll drop it.

I'm bringing to light a discussion that is already in progress in the RCC. I am not attacking any of your doctrines. Don't think I do that- in fact, it is Roman sources from devout Catholics that led me to this observation. It's a Roman Catholic point of discussion, and if you have carefully followed this discussion in the other thread I cited Roman Catholic Canon Law and so forth, not protestant or atheist sources for the enhancement of the topic. My interest is discussion with my Roman Catholic brethren, for mutual learning and growth. I'm sorry you don't see that.

Good efforts from nyj and Neal, but alas, I won't reply.
 
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Caedmon

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Fiskare said:
I think it's dangerous to the Christian Faith for a laywomen to anoint a Christian bishop in any way, shape, or form, which is the first issue- and also these "official" stories don't gel with the stories from the Indian sources from that actual time of the event.

Furthermore, I think there is a lot of compromise with liberalism and worse in this reply and the Fathers and bishops of old would have never allowed this practice and defamation of Christian polity and liturgy to occur. Frankly, although the Indian ritual may have nice intentions, it is not compatible with Christian liturgy, and should have been resisted. It was not recieved from the Fathers!

Still, it is being justified in these artcles by other bishops with a warped sense of loyalty, in my opinion. Simply put, it's not Catholic. Find me the practice - exactly, with a Pope or even another bishop- in the early Church, or even before Vat II or *whatever*, and I'll change my tune.

"From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves." 1 Thess. 5:22
I have a question. Why are you, as an Anglican, concerned enough about the Catholic Church to debate against what you see as evils within Her? Why do you persist in telling us here in OBOB that the Catholic Church doesn't have it all together? Just curious...
 
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KennySe

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Fiskare said:
I think it's dangerous to the Christian Faith for a laywomen to anoint a Christian bishop in any way, shape, or form, which is the first issue-

Luke 7:37-50.
And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
 
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Fiskare

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Caedmon said:
I have a question. Why are you, as an Anglican, concerned enough about the Catholic Church to debate against what you see as evils within Her? Why do you persist in telling us here in OBOB that the Catholic Church doesn't have it all together? Just curious...
Because liberalism, on both the Anglican and the Roman side is the stumbling block to unity.
 
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Fiskare

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KennySe said:
Luke 7:37-50.
And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
And a very good reply, but alas, no sign of pagan connotations in the example either from the woman of the Lord . Kudos nontheless. :|
 
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