Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, and the rapture

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Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."


Q: Why are these verses written in a way that suggests that even Jesus doesn't know when the rapture will take place, given that Jesus and the Father are one, united in heaven? Wouldn't they both be of the same mind?

Q:
Do you believe a rapture will take place?
 

Kenny'sID

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Q: Why are these verses written in a way that suggests that even Jesus doesn't know when the rapture will take place, given that Jesus and the Father are one, united in heaven? Wouldn't they both be of the same mind?

Mighty good question, but I'm sure someone will come up with something to explain it away. :)

Q: Do you believe a rapture will take place?

Not in the conventional sense, but I do believe in the second coming.
 
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Mighty good question, but I'm sure someone will come up with something to explain it away.

I sure hope so. It's probably just a little nit-picky clerical error lol
 
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ewq1938

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Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."


Q: Why are these verses written in a way that suggests that even Jesus doesn't know when the rapture will take place, given that Jesus and the Father are one, united in heaven? Wouldn't they both be of the same mind?

At the time he spoke that, Jesus did not know the day or hour of his return. Being one or united or having "the same mind" did not affect that.


Q:
Do you believe a rapture will take place?

Paul wrote about the rapture happening just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ so yes there will be a rapture. Keep in mind he wrote it using the Greek word for rapture, harpazo.
 
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SeventyOne

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We are told Jesus grew in wisdom while He was growing and incarnated, revealing there were likely some limitations on the knowledge He had at the time. At the beginning of the book of Revelation, we are told the Father gave Jesus a revelation for Him to share with His servants. We don't know exactly when this additional information was given to Jesus, but we have a decent idea when He chose to pass it off to us through John. There's no reason at this point to assume Jesus is still without that information.

That said, those verses are very Jewish in context. The day no one knows the day or the hour would have brought to mind the Feast of Trumpets, as it is another name for that feast. Similarly, here in America, if I were to mention 'turkey day', people would know it as an idiom for Thanksgiving. And saying only the Father knows alludes to their wedding ceremony preparations. Typically, the groom would go to prepare a place for his bride at the Father's estate, and when the Father was satisfied with the preparations, he would then tell the son to go get his bride. This tradition also plays into the understanding of when Jesus told us He was going away to prepare a place for us, and then come back and receive us unto Himself. In the context of this wedding tradition, only the father of the groom knew when the son would be returning for the bride.

As for the timing of the rapture. Paul spends a great deal of time in explaining and reinforcing that Jesus is the head of the Church and we are all members of His body. Corporately, we all are a part of a singular entity. He also tells us the rapture will take place at the 'last trump', which again is in reference to the Feast of Trumpets where the last trump is in reference to last of a series of 100 trumpet blasts.

I happen to be one that when I look at the identity of the manchild raptured in Revelation 12, it looks just like the rapture of the Church. The manchild is identified as the one who will rule the nations with a rod of iron. So, when one looks at who rules with a rod of iron, Psalms tells us it is Jesus who had that rod. However, Revelation 2 further expands on that and Jesus tells us that rod is further given to the Church. So, the manchild describes characteristics of both Jesus and His Church. And since the Church and Jesus are all one body, when He returns for us, both living and dead, we will all be together for the first time as the manchild with the rod of iron to rule the nations.

It just so happens that sign of the birth and rapture of this manchild found in Revelation 12, takes place in the heavens this year on the Feast of Trumpets, 132 days from now. Make of that whatever you will.
 
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ewq1938

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That said, those verses are very Jewish in context. The day no one knows the day or the hour would have brought to mind the Feast of Trumpets, as it is another name for that feast.

Where can that be found?
 
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SeventyOne

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Where can that be found?

There are numerous historic Jewish and non-Jewish resources online that a bit of research may pull up on that, like this one, 'No Man Knows The Day or The Hour | Hatikva Ministries'.

It was called that because they literally could not mark the starting day of this Feast on a calendar. It began once two witnesses on the Temple Mount spotted the sliver of the new moon, marking the new year, the start of Tishri. Once their account was confirmed by the Temple leadership, they would declare the feast. They never knew on what day or hour the moon would be cited. Even a simple cloud covering could delay the sighting by who knows how long.
 
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SeventyOne

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IMO it's not too strong of an argument. I think it means what it means, that no one knew yet without any further mystery :)

Not trying to make an argument, just pointing out that that was a cultural idiom that gets confused today because it is a had another context to the people He was speaking to at the time.

Whether or not one chooses to pursue that info for themselves is up to them.
 
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Not trying to make an argument


I didn't mean it that way but just as an expression of speech meaning I found the evidence lacking a bit....that's all.
 
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Bobinator

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Mark 13:32
“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."


Q: Why are these verses written in a way that suggests that even Jesus doesn't know when the rapture will take place, given that Jesus and the Father are one, united in heaven? Wouldn't they both be of the same mind?

Q:
Do you believe a rapture will take place?
There is no scripture to support a pre-tribulation rapture. It will occur when Jesus comes back, which is after the tribulations. Jesus provides the itinerary leading up to his return in Matthew 24.


I would suppose that Jesus, having since returned to the God-head, knows the time. It’s not for any of us to know the time, but to observe the seasons. Faithful servants are instructed to keep watch.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus is man. As a man he’s finite. He died. As a man, there’s no reason we need to say that he knows everything.

He is the incarnation of the Logos, united as one person. But still, Chalcedon tells us that we can’t confuse man and God. Despite being united, when acting as a human he has human limitations.

The third council of Constantinople, in dealing with the monothelites, said he has “two natural wills and two natural operations.”
 
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hedrick

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@Hendrick

I take it you don't believe in Trinity?
Sure I do. But Jesus is the incarnation of the Logos. That's why I quoted Chalcedon and Constantinople 3. I'm doing my best to explain orthodox Christology, independent of what I personally believe.

The OP seemed confused that Jesus had a separate human mind. The human nature was missing nothing that a human would have. Some thought there wasn't a separate human spirit, that Jesus had the spirit of the Logos. That was a heresy. Others that there wasn't a separate human will. That was monothelitism, condemned at Constantinople 3. As far as I know there isn't a separate heresy for saying that there was only one mind. But that would be just as much a denial of Jesus' true humanity as saying there was no separate human spirit or will. As a human, Jesus had all the limitations of a human, except sin.

Of course through his union with the Logos he could know anything he needed to. But apparently this wasn't one of those things.
 
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