Man's Sovereignty

[1stcenturylady]

God is sovereign, but God made man in His image and likeness. Not that we look like him but just as children take on attributes of their Father, so are we. He has given us dominion over things, and we have free will. God has given us sovereignty over our own life and choices.

Even though God predestined the Hebrew nation to be the chosen people, and even called them His elect, didn't mean they had no free will against rebellion or the ability to choose other gods. So if God's elect can choose to rebel against God and be damned should give those who believe they are predestined to be saved, pause.

Comments with scripture?

 

[ViaCrucis]

In Lutheranism predestination is not a doctrine that means we can't fall into apostasy, it is a doctrine which brings comfort to sinners because we can be confident that our salvation is not up to us, but God, who freely and graciously chose us in Christ and adopted us as children by His mercy in Jesus.

Man is not sovereign. Man is broken, fallen, and destitute in the poverty and wretchedness of sin and death.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

In Lutheranism predestination is not a doctrine that means we can't fall into apostasy, it is a doctrine which brings comfort to sinners because we can be confident that our salvation is not up to us, but God, who freely and graciously chose us in Christ and adopted us as children by His mercy in Jesus.

Man is not sovereign. Man is broken, fallen, and destitute in the poverty and wretchedness of sin and death.

-CryptoLutheran

Man is only "destitute in the poverty and wretchedness of sin and death" BEFORE Christ, not after repenting unto Jesus. If you are still in sin and death you are not in Christ. Christ gives us His own Spirit to free us from sin and death. We are dead to sin, and are born again into the life of the Spirit.

 

[bling]

Man is provided very limited free will and maybe only the free will needed to fulfill His earthly objective. Otherwise God is in control doing all God can to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and that “everything” includes satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, hell, and even sinning.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Man is provided very limited free will and maybe only the free will needed to fulfill His earthly objective. Otherwise God is in control doing all God can to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective and that “everything” includes satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, tragedies of all kinds, hell, and even sinning.

Yes, I agree if you are saying man has free will. What I do not agree with is man has no free will whether to accept Christ or not. 'Those who are predestined will, those not predestined won't.'

 

[bling]

Yes, I agree if you are saying man has free will. What I do not agree with is man has no free will whether to accept Christ or not. 'Those who are predestined will, those not predestined won't.'

It is more complicated than that: “Accepting Christ” would be something noble, worthy of praise, righteous and commendable. We do not have the power to do such a thing, but we can do (make a free will choice) prior to accepting Christ, which will enable us to have the power to accept Christ.

There are no monuments build on the battle field to those who surrendered, there are no prizes given to those who gave up and wimped out. A nonbeliever soldier of satan has nothing to thank God for, his enemy (God is sending him to hell). You have to give up on self, you have to be unwilling to be macho and accept the punishment you fully deserve, you have to refuse to pay the piper, you have to be willing to humbly accept sacrificial pure charity (totally undeserved) from your enemy, while He is still your enemy.

Think about the prodigal son because we were like him: Did the prodigal son do something “worthy, noble, or righteous”, since he turned to the father for selfish reasons (just wanting some kind of life and to continue living). He was not jumping back into his former position (which is great since he was so ungrateful), but the son who returned was not that rebellious, disobedient young man who left, but was now a humble child (just the way we must come to God).

Get the first free will step right and God will shower you with gifts and out a gratitude you will want to accept Christ.

 

[SBC]

God is sovereign, but God made man in His image and likeness. Not that we look like him but just as children take on attributes of their Father, so are we. He has given us dominion over things, and we have free will. God has given us sovereignty over our own life and choices.

Even though God predestined the Hebrew nation to be the chosen people, and even called them His elect, didn't mean they had no free will against rebellion or the ability to choose other gods. So if God's elect can choose to rebel against God and be damned should give those who believe they are predestined to be saved, pause.

Comments with scripture?

1) Gen 1:26
Man is Adam and was made in Gods Image after Gods likeness.

2) Gen 5:1 Gen 5:2. Gen 5:3
Man is the womb of woman is formed by God,
But by the corrupt Seed of man.
Men born are in the image and likeness of fallen Adam.

3)
It is By and Through God that an individual man can become converted to the likeness of God And receive the Promise to ... with all of his brothers...receive the image of God.

4)
We have sovereignty to a point, while we are alive, to make freewill choices.

5) Gen 9:4. Gen 9:5. Ezekiel 18:4
However God has Supreme authority over our lives- which is our Blood.
He requires the Blood of every man. And no man knows the hour God will come to collect.

God also has in a nut shell authority over all Life that is His life in us.
Our souls, which are His.
Our spirits, quickened and kept by His Spirit.



God Bless
SBC

 

[SBC]

It is more complicated than that: “Accepting Christ” would be something noble, worthy of praise, righteous and commendable.
We do not have the power to do such a thing...

Disagree.

We do absolutely have the power to exercise our freewill choice to accept Christ or reject Him. And such choices are made while we are in our corrupt sinful state.

God accepts our choice to accept Him FROM the best we've got...
Not our mind that is against Him.
Not our soul that is corrupted by our minds.
But from the Truth in Hearts which is our natural spirit...
And even Then God Verifies by searching our Hearts.
IOW - we can not fool God.

Think about the prodigal son because we were like him: Did the prodigal son do something “worthy, noble, or righteous”, since he turned to the father for selfish reasons (just wanting some kind of life and to continue living). He was not jumping back into his former position (which is great since he was so ungrateful), but the son who returned was not that rebellious, disobedient young man who left, but was now a humble child (just the way we must come to God).

Disagee.

You were not naturally born With God.
We are all naturally born InSin separated from God.

The prodigal son was with his father, left, and returned to his father.

This is parallel to a man believing...(not committed) but believing during his lifetime,
Then he stops believing....and at a later point begins believing again And commits.

This man will widely be recognized- bells and harps a strumming if you get the point...a big deal.

Now for the man who followed along, believing, Trusting and committing without the interlude of having had fallen away for awhile... there is no big deal fanfair. Congrats,
You're Saved, see ya next week.

Point being, don't get all jealous of the big deal made for the one that was on the right path, fell away, became lost, and has returned in Commitment.
Celebrate and be joyful for him.

You can look at it from Gods perspective and apply the same to yourself.

Every Saved man, IS Gods Inheritance.
Here's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, awe darn, 4 fell away.
Here's 8, 9 10, huh?? Oh yeah look 4 is back.... Yippee!!

God Bless
SBC

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is more complicated than that: “Accepting Christ” would be something noble, worthy of praise, righteous and commendable. We do not have the power to do such a thing, but we can do (make a free will choice) prior to accepting Christ, which will enable us to have the power to accept Christ.

There are no monuments build on the battle field to those who surrendered, there are no prizes given to those who gave up and wimped out. A nonbeliever soldier of satan has nothing to thank God for, his enemy (God is sending him to hell). You have to give up on self, you have to be unwilling to be macho and accept the punishment you fully deserve, you have to refuse to pay the piper, you have to be willing to humbly accept sacrificial pure charity (totally undeserved) from your enemy, while He is still your enemy.

Think about the prodigal son because we were like him: Did the prodigal son do something “worthy, noble, or righteous”, since he turned to the father for selfish reasons (just wanting some kind of life and to continue living). He was not jumping back into his former position (which is great since he was so ungrateful), but the son who returned was not that rebellious, disobedient young man who left, but was now a humble child (just the way we must come to God).

Get the first free will step right and God will shower you with gifts and out a gratitude you will want to accept Christ.

I also agree with this. We cannot stop sinning of our own free will. It is impossible. But when we repent and turn to Christ, saying I am weak, you are strong, come into my life and save me from my weakness to sin, He does. He gives us His Own Spirit to live in us, making us dead to sin (Romans 6:2) and giving us the power to be righteous. He does so, so we also may be righteous as He is righteous.

It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ, and shows us our weakness. But it is our own free will that either hates the darkness, or loves the darkness. When we want to be free of the darkness and are flat on our backs, that is when we look up and see the Way.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Man is only "destitute in the poverty and wretchedness of sin and death" BEFORE Christ, not after repenting unto Jesus. If you are still in sin and death you are not in Christ. Christ gives us His own Spirit to free us from sin and death. We are dead to sin, and are born again into the life of the Spirit.

Simul iustus et peccator.

Last I checked Christians are still sinful mortals.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

Simul iustus et peccator.

Last I checked Christians are still sinful mortals.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, some are. There are Christians in name only. They know all about Jesus but have never been given the power He gives to His own to be dead to sin. Jesus knows His own. "My sheep HEAR My voice, and FOLLOW Me. They don't sin. The others He will say, "I never knew you."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes, some are. There are Christians in name only. They know all about Jesus but have never been given the power He gives to His own to be dead to sin. Jesus knows His own. "My sheep HEAR My voice, and FOLLOW Me. They don't sin. The others He will say, "I never knew you."

You know, if there were immortal human beings walking around the planet that would be really impressive. Where are they?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

You know, if there were immortal human beings walking around the planet that would be really impressive. Where are they?

-CryptoLutheran

Our spirits are immortal once we become born again and filled with God's Spirit. It is our bodies that die. That is why at the resurrection our bodies must go from mortal to immortal to match our spirits. In the twinkling of an eye, we put on new bodies. But I believe the unsaved spirit's are mortal, and once the bodies die, the spirits go to outer darkness awaiting the resurrection of the dead. Then they will be judged and both body and spirit are destroyed in the lake of fire. That last part is up for debate, I know, but that is what I believe. Glad I won't have to find out for real.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Our spirits are immortal once we become born again and filled with God's Spirit. It is our bodies that die. That is why at the resurrection our bodies must go from mortal to immortal to match our spirits. In the twinkling of an eye, we put on new bodies. But I believe the unsaved spirit's are mortal, and once the bodies die, the spirits go to outer darkness awaiting the resurrection of the dead. Then they will be judged and both body and spirit are destroyed in the lake of fire. That last part is up for debate, I know, but that is what I believe. Glad I won't have to find out for real.

In Romans 7 the Apostle is clear that sin and our mortal flesh are intertwined,

"Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin."

If we are, at present, free from sin and death in our bodies, then we have already received the resurrection--but of course that is not true, we remain in our mortal bodies corruptible, and sin dwells even in our very members; not because the body is evil, but because we remain in Adam. We are in Christ, by grace through faith; the reality of this comes to fullness in the resurrection, on the Last Day.

We remain, therefore, sinner and saint. Sinner by nature, saint by grace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

In Romans 7 the Apostle is clear that sin and our mortal flesh are intertwined,

"Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin."

If we are, at present, free from sin and death in our bodies, then we have already received the resurrection--but of course that is not true, we remain in our mortal bodies corruptible, and sin dwells even in our very members; not because the body is evil, but because we remain in Adam. We are in Christ, by grace through faith; the reality of this comes to fullness in the resurrection, on the Last Day.

We remain, therefore, sinner and saint. Sinner by nature, saint by grace.

-CryptoLutheran

The Lutheran concept of "Sinner by nature, saint by grace" is wrong. Grace does not allow us to remain in sin. The gift of grace is the gift of POWER. Our nature has been changed by the Holy Spirit. The Jews didn't have the Holy Spirit - they had the law. But their carnal nature prevented them from keeping the law. Thus they sinned, and the wages of sin is death.

Read the whole chapter. Paul is still talking about ever since Moses, obeying the law in our own carnal strength before Christ. He's been talking about the law ever since the beginning of the whole epistle. Chapter 7 is about, 'it is not that the law is evil, but SIN in us is evil.' At the end of the chapter, he points to WHO can save us from the sin in us - Jesus. And WHO does Jesus give those who turn to Him? The SPIRIT.

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[SBC]

You know, if there were immortal human beings walking around the planet that would be really impressive. Where are they?

-CryptoLutheran

Huh?

Where they? You can't see them?
They are the walking dead IN Christ.
You can't see their Restored soul?
You can't see their Born Again Spirit ?
You can't see their justified body's?

Try looking with spiritual eyes .

God Bless,
SBC

 

[ViaCrucis]

Huh?

Where they? You can't see them?
They are the walking dead IN Christ.
You can't see their Restored soul?
You can't see their Born Again Spirit ?
You can't see their justified body's?

Try looking with spiritual eyes .

God Bless,
SBC

If we who are in Christ are now perfect, even as Christ is perfect, then we aren't talking about some "spiritual" immortality, but actual immortality--of the body.

The fact that Christians remain mortal in this life means that we have not yet become what we are to become, but are works in progress. Life in this mortal body means we are still corruptible and mortal, and the reality of sin still dwells in us. We have received something new, from Christ, by which we are born again--the new man--but that doesn't mean the old man is gone. The old man and the new man coexist while we are present in this life in this body of death.

Pretending like you're not a sinner is not only heretical thought, it is spiritual suicide. The moment you believe yourself without need of grace and salvation you deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ and shipwreck your soul.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

If we who are in Christ are now perfect, even as Christ is perfect, then we aren't talking about some "spiritual" immortality, but actual immortality--of the body.

The fact that Christians remain mortal in this life means that we have not yet become what we are to become, but are works in progress. Life in this mortal body means we are still corruptible and mortal, and the reality of sin still dwells in us. We have received something new, from Christ, by which we are born again--the new man--but that doesn't mean the old man is gone. The old man and the new man coexist while we are present in this life in this body of death.

Pretending like you're not a sinner is not only heretical thought, it is spiritual suicide. The moment you believe yourself without need of grace and salvation you deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ and shipwreck your soul.

-CryptoLutheran

We have a difference of opinion as to what doctrine is heretical. "Sin strongly so grace may abound" is the most heretical doctrine in the Church today.

Before Christ, man's carnal nature's righteousness was as filthy rags.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine-dresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Note verse 2 talks of those IN CHRIST who do not bear fruit are damned. Why? Doesn't God's grace cover our sins? Christ died for us before we came to Him even though we did nothing to deserve His sacrifice. That grace is unmerited favor. False beliefs in the Church about grace is the mis-step, believing grace is still unmerited favor AFTER Christ has given us His power. This is the grace of a believer - the power of the Holy Spirit, making us dead to sin and not in the flesh. But we must walk in the Spirit, and not revert back to the flesh. But the power of the Holy Spirit makes that burden, light. Our whole set of desires is to love what God loves, and hate what God hates. And as we continue to walk in the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit become manifest in our lives and ripen.

 

[ViaCrucis]

We have a difference of opinion as to what doctrine is heretical. "Sin strongly so grace may abound" is the most heretical doctrine in the Church today.

I'm not aware of any church that teaches "sin strongly so grace may abound". Though it seems that you are deliberately misrepresenting Luther in order to put forward a strawman argument.

Before Christ, man's carnal nature's righteousness was as filthy rags.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine-dresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Note verse 2 talks of those IN CHRIST who do not bear fruit are damned. Why? Doesn't God's grace cover our sins? Christ died for us before we came to Him even though we did nothing to deserve His sacrifice. That grace is unmerited favor. False beliefs in the Church about grace is the mis-step, believing grace is still unmerited favor AFTER Christ has given us His power. This is the grace of a believer - the power of the Holy Spirit, making us dead to sin and not in the flesh. But we must walk in the Spirit, and not revert back to the flesh. But the power of the Holy Spirit makes that burden, light. Our whole set of desires is to love what God loves, and hate what God hates. And as we continue to walk in the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit become manifest in our lives and ripen.

It says those which do not abide in Christ are cast out, withers, and is thrown into the fire. The fruitfulness comes from being in Christ, what it does not say is that if at any given moment we are not bearing fruit we are cast off and damned; it says if we do not abide in Christ we are damned.

You want to teach sinless perfection--go right ahead. I'm not interested in it. I am interested in the saving mercy of God in Jesus Christ that I might confess my sins, and trust in the Lord, and hope in Him for my salvation. Because the moment I take my eyes off of Jesus then I might as well have just poured gasoline onto my house and lit a match.

I need Jesus every hour of every day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Francis Drake]

God is sovereign, but God made man in His image and likeness. Not that we look like him but just as children take on attributes of their Father, so are we. He has given us dominion over things, and we have free will. God has given us sovereignty over our own life and choices.

I agree completely.
Man must have freewill to accept or reject God, otherwise we cannot genuinely love Him.
If God wanted clones for companionship, then he could have created clones without all the hassle of Satan and the Tree of Knowledge.

Even though God predestined the Hebrew nation to be the chosen people, and even called them His elect, didn't mean they had no free will against rebellion or the ability to choose other gods. So if God's elect can choose to rebel against God and be damned should give those who believe they are predestined to be saved, pause.

Comments with scripture?

I think you are mixing up the notion of Israel being God's elect nation, and both OT and NT saints being elect in terms of new birth and eternal life.

Individual Israelites were in exactly the same position we are as individual believers. They were/are born into an elect nation, but must each respond to the Lord in order to become individually elect as saints.

They/we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, foreknowledge that we would respond positively to the conviction of His Holy Spirit