Do you think that vaccination should now be mandatory?


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keith99

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It is actually the vaccinated who are the festering petri dishes.

Which is why the two recent waves of nasty mutations where from the highly vaccinated countries of India and South Africa. Oh wait!
 
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JulieB67

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did your parents have you vaccinated before attending school?

Yes, I'm not antivaxx and most aren't. I've had many many vaccinations, especially in my almost 30 years of healthcare. But I am anti big government, overreach. Especially over personal medical decisions and a shot that's not all that effective at stopping the spread and still doesn't have any true "long term" studies and so on.
 
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bekkilyn

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Tell a rebel to do something and he will do the opposite. But tell a rebel to do the right thing is different. This is killing people.

Most people will do the right thing once they are convinced that it actually is the right thing. But here in the U.S., a government mandate makes it wrong by default. Nothing else matters that that point because many people are not going to accept government tyranny no matter what, even if they would have otherwise gotten the vaccine had it been treated as a medical issue rather than a political one.
 
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eucatastrophe

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DEFINE_ME

"High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce trans-
mission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of
possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden
of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epide-
miological relevance of COVID-19 vaccinated individuals is increas-
ing. In the UK it was described that secondary attack rates among
household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was simi-
lar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25%
for vaccinated vs 23% for unvaccinated). 12 of 31 infections in fully
vaccinated household contacts (39%) arose from fully vaccinated epi-
demiologically linked index cases. Peak viral load did not differ by
vaccination status or variant type [1]. In Germany, the rate of symp-
tomatic COVID-19 cases among the fully vaccinated (“breakthrough
infections”) is reported weekly since 21. July 2021 and was 16.9% at
that time among patients of 60 years and older [2]. This proportion is
increasing week by week and was 58.9% on 27. October 2021
(Figure 1) providing clear evidence of the increasing relevance of the
fully vaccinated as a possible source of transmission. A similar situa-
tion was described for the UK. Between week 39 and 42, a total of
100.160 COVID-19 cases were reported among citizens of 60 years or
older. 89.821 occurred among the fully vaccinated (89.7%), 3.395
among the unvaccinated (3.4%) [3]. One week before, the COVID-19
case rate per 100.000 was higher among the subgroup of the vacci-
nated compared to the subgroup of the unvaccinated in all age
groups of 30 years or more. In Israel a nosocomial outbreak was
reported involving 16 healthcare workers, 23 exposed patients and
two family members. The source was a fully vaccinated COVID-19
patient. The vaccination rate was 96.2% among all exposed individu-
als (151 healthcare workers and 97 patients). Fourteen fully vacci-
nated patients became severely ill or died, the two unvaccinated
patients developed mild disease [4]. The US Centres for Disease Con-
trol and Prevention (CDC) identifies four of the top five counties with
the highest percentage of fully vaccinated population (99.984.3%)
as “high”transmission counties [5]. Many decision makers assume
that the vaccinated can be excluded as a source of transmission. It
appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population
as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding
about public health control measures "
 
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eucatastrophe

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Yet again, one of those threads with more fear mongering than common sense. The Infection Fatality Rate for this virus is not 1%!! It is around a quarter of a percent, and that is the average. For young people and typical working age adults it is much less. Why cant people face the facts? This is a virus that is deadly to the very old and those with serious underlying health conditions. These are the people that might benefit from a vaccine. Not 5 year olds, not college kids, not healthy working age adults. By not focusing on the groups who need protecting, our incompetent government and criminally negligent media have caused untold suffering. Vaccines do not prevent the spread of the virus. It just is what it is. You dont have the right to force people to do something merely because you are afraid.
 
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Taodeching

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Christian does not equal individualism
This right here is the biggest problem. Because America has promoted the idea of rugged individualism many modern Christians think Christianity is, not just equals individualism, but is individualism itself. So many have forgotten that Christianity means community and care more for others than yourself, it is all over the forums these days and it is tragic
 
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mindlight

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Nonsense. Vaccinated people still spread it. And the vaccine doesn't do squat against delta.

The CDC disagrees:

Getting vaccinated protects against severe illness from COVID-19, including the Delta variant. Monitoring COVID-19 incidence by vaccination status might provide early signals of potential changes in vaccine effectiveness that can be confirmed through robust controlled studies.

Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases...

The estimate they give indicate that unvaccinated people have 5 times the risk of infection, 10 times the risk of hospitalization and 10 times the risk of death of unvaccinated people.

The European Medical Association echoes these views:

Infections in vaccinated people do not mean the vaccines are not working. No vaccine is 100% effective, although the effectiveness of all EU-authorised COVID-19 vaccines is very high.

Vaccinated people are far better protected than unvaccinated people against severe disease and death caused by SARS-CoV-2, including variants such as Delta. Vaccination greatly reduces the number of people in hospital due to COVID-19.

As well as protecting those at highest risk of severe disease, vaccination is important for reducing the spread of the virus and preventing the emergence of new variants of concern.

COVID-19 vaccines: key facts | European Medicines Agency

Various fact-checkers have debunked this claim quite thoroughly showing how those who say it misuse the evidence to try and make their case:

Vaccinated people in in England are not dying faster than unvaccinated

This one debunks the specific fake claims made by New York reporter Alex Berenson:

PolitiFact - Alex Berenson misrepresents data on death rates by vaccination status in England
 
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mindlight

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This is completely false. Vaccinated people have been found to be carrying many times the viral load without symptoms than their unvaccinated brethren. You have this completely backwards.

Please show a source for this fake news.
 
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mindlight

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I am far from fit and strong, that was my point. I am in the high risk group. But my immune system still did it's job, something God trained/formed it to do. And again, I'm not talking about everyone else, I'm making decisions for myself and body. I should not have to put something in my body so someone else can feel better. Vaxxed or not, all can spread it. We all should have that right to make our own personal choices when it comes to medical decisions. If someone else feels the need to be vaccinated, that's their choice.

Again, have you had your antibodies tested? And are you posting threads asking if people have had them tested as well as threads like this? If not, than it can't be that serious for you.

I had a full and exhaustive medical checkup for a research project here in Germany. I am completely fit and not at risk from anything. They use me for the control groups of what healthy looks like. They also noted antibodies in my system from my covid vaccination. Since then I have been boosted (plus 2 weeks) so the antibody levels are likely even higher now. It is not fear motivating me here but concern for those I know who are resisting the vaccination. Also, a desire that this general pandemic is finally over. The best way forward is vaccination and the individualistic argument that this is my body should be ignored for the sake of the general community. Unvaccinated spread this at a higher rate and are more likely to die from it as the above links I shared show.
 
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mindlight

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To me it depends on what is meant by manditory.

If you have to be vaccinated to work for a company (including any governmental organization), to go to school or to gain entry to a place of business then absolutely yes I am in favor of manditory vaccinations. I also think insurance companies should be allowed to require vaccination or at least charge a very different fee for insurance. The same for second level of employeement. E.g. government or other businesses being able to require all contractors to be vaccinated. And of course requiring vaccination for all those in the military, which should be a no brainer and near the top of the list. Being vaccinated for all diseases that could be encountered if deployed has been standard for decades, longer than most of us have been alive. And Covid is apt to be an issue in any deployment.

If instead one means sending in the National Guard and actually forcing people to be vaccinated, then no.

In Austria, there will be a lockdown targetting the unvaccinated with spot checks to see that is enforced. From February invitations to an appointment for vaccination will be sent out. Non-compliance will result in a $4000 fine.

EDIT: The extra line I deleted was no longer accurate information.
 
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mindlight

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Most people will do the right thing once they are convinced that it actually is the right thing. But here in the U.S., a government mandate makes it wrong by default. Nothing else matters that that point because many people are not going to accept government tyranny no matter what, even if they would have otherwise gotten the vaccine had it been treated as a medical issue rather than a political one.

Well, I am dual national British-German and British by birth so the whole cultural argument "revolution is built into our DNA" argument sounded as lame in 1776 as it does now. Then it allowed you to build a new nation and take control of your destiny. Now it is killing you. Also, it is disingenuous as Americans have accepted a wide range of vaccinations for other diseases and when faced with attacks on the USA have rallied as a community against that invader despite the objections of a small minority.

EDIT: To clarify meaning of a phrase Americans might not be familiar with.
 
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mindlight

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DEFINE_ME

"High COVID-19 vaccination rates were expected to reduce trans-
mission of SARS-CoV-2 in populations by reducing the number of
possible sources for transmission and thereby to reduce the burden
of COVID-19 disease. Recent data, however, indicate that the epide-
miological relevance of COVID-19 vaccinated individuals is increas-
ing. In the UK it was described that secondary attack rates among
household contacts exposed to fully vaccinated index cases was simi-
lar to household contacts exposed to unvaccinated index cases (25%
for vaccinated vs 23% for unvaccinated). 12 of 31 infections in fully
vaccinated household contacts (39%) arose from fully vaccinated epi-
demiologically linked index cases. Peak viral load did not differ by
vaccination status or variant type [1]. In Germany, the rate of symp-
tomatic COVID-19 cases among the fully vaccinated (“breakthrough
infections”) is reported weekly since 21. July 2021 and was 16.9% at
that time among patients of 60 years and older [2]. This proportion is
increasing week by week and was 58.9% on 27. October 2021
(Figure 1) providing clear evidence of the increasing relevance of the
fully vaccinated as a possible source of transmission. A similar situa-
tion was described for the UK. Between week 39 and 42, a total of
100.160 COVID-19 cases were reported among citizens of 60 years or
older. 89.821 occurred among the fully vaccinated (89.7%), 3.395
among the unvaccinated (3.4%) [3]. One week before, the COVID-19
case rate per 100.000 was higher among the subgroup of the vacci-
nated compared to the subgroup of the unvaccinated in all age
groups of 30 years or more. In Israel a nosocomial outbreak was
reported involving 16 healthcare workers, 23 exposed patients and
two family members. The source was a fully vaccinated COVID-19
patient. The vaccination rate was 96.2% among all exposed individu-
als (151 healthcare workers and 97 patients). Fourteen fully vacci-
nated patients became severely ill or died, the two unvaccinated
patients developed mild disease [4]. The US Centres for Disease Con-
trol and Prevention (CDC) identifies four of the top five counties with
the highest percentage of fully vaccinated population (99.984.3%)
as “high”transmission counties [5]. Many decision makers assume
that the vaccinated can be excluded as a source of transmission. It
appears to be grossly negligent to ignore the vaccinated population
as a possible and relevant source of transmission when deciding
about public health control measures "

What this study shows is that vaccinated people can also be a source of transmission for the disease - TRUE(because the majority of people now are vaccinated) and that the peak load of the virus in vaccinated people may also be the same. That is its limited focus. What it does not say is that most of these vaccinated people survive this while unvaccinated are 10 times more likely to die as a result of transmission and 10 times more likely to be hospitalized in an already overburdened system.

Reading this report my conclusion would be that vaccinated people still have a responsibility to wear a mask and to practice social distancing to avoid infecting unvaccinated people.
 
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mindlight

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Yet again, one of those threads with more fear mongering than common sense. The Infection Fatality Rate for this virus is not 1%!! It is around a quarter of a percent, and that is the average. For young people and typical working age adults it is much less. Why cant people face the facts? This is a virus that is deadly to the very old and those with serious underlying health conditions. These are the people that might benefit from a vaccine. Not 5 year olds, not college kids, not healthy working age adults. By not focusing on the groups who need protecting, our incompetent government and criminally negligent media have caused untold suffering. Vaccines do not prevent the spread of the virus. It just is what it is. You dont have the right to force people to do something merely because you are afraid.

Serious scientists disgree;

This study by the BMA notes that IFR varies by when in time you take the snapshot. So in Germany for example when old people formed the majority of cases the IFR was very high (3.6% in the Levin study) but when young people formed the majority of cases the IFR shot right down to as low as 0.2%. So you should look at any claim for ultra-low IFRs with some skepticism as they need to reveal age groups and more detailed information to show how helpful those numbers are.

Estimating effective infection fatality rates during the course of the COVID-19 pandemic in Germany | BMC Public Health | Full Text

The below argue: that the RT-PCR-based case fatality ratio (CFR) is a reliable indicator of the lethality of COVID-19 in locations where testing is extensive. RT-PCR CFR = 1.096% (The sero-RT-PCR CFR test brings lower values owing to different rules applied for the numerator and denominator values)

Infection fatality ratio and case fatality ratio of COVID-19 - ScienceDirect

This estimates a rate of 0.68% which makes it 7 times more deadly than flu

The lethality of COVID-19 is much higher than the flu; the Biden press corps didn’t say COVID-19 was a hoax

A systematic review and meta-analysis of published research data on COVID-19 infection-fatality rates

WHO estimates a rate between 0.9-1%

https://www.who.int/bulletin/online_first/BLT.20.265892.pdf

In Germany this study reported 0.83%

Estimation of the SARS-CoV-2 infection fatality rate in Germany
 
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JulieB67

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but concern for those I know who are resisting the vaccination.

Again, have you started any threads asking people if they've had their antibodies tested? That is the key -immunity. If you really had concern (along with all of our governments) that would be the focus -getting to "herd immunity" Many people have natural without even realizing it. And you can post all of the statistics you want, natural immunity has always been the gold standard and most likely be able to fight off the varients much better than some vaccines which only focus on spike proteins, etc.

And no, I'm not suggesting anyone go out and get Covid, but for those recovered from it, the natural immunity will recognize it again and most likely will equip to take on any varient.

And many have natural immunity and don't even know it. But there is no push for antibody testing. It's a simple and affordable test here in the US. But they are discouraging people to do this. Again, this should give anyone pause and question why? Why if the goal is "herd immunity" That's the only way out of a pandemic. Then some of us realize that's obviously not the goal.
 
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bekkilyn

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Well, I am dual national British-German and British by birth so the whole "revolution is built into our DNA" argument sounded as lame in 1776 as it does now. Then it allowed you to build a new nation and take control of your destiny. Now it is killing you. Also, it is disingenuous as Americans have accepted a wide range of vaccinations for other diseases and when faced with attacks on the USA have rallied as a community against that invader despite the objections of a small minority.

I didn't say anything about anything being built into the DNA, so your genetics of being British-German have no relevance to your understanding, or lack of, of our American culture of independence and opposition to government tyranny. Since you are not *American*, it is still not *your* culture, so while you may look similar to many Americans because of underlying genetics, we are very, very different in many other ways.
 
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bekkilyn

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Again, have you started any threads asking people if they've had their antibodies tested? That is the key -immunity. If you really had concern (along with all of our governments) that would be the focus -getting to "herd immunity" Many people have natural without even realizing it. And you can post all of the statistics you want, natural immunity has always been the gold standard and most likely be able to fight off the varients much better than some vaccines which only focus on spike proteins, etc.

And no, I'm not suggesting anyone go out and get Covid, but for those recovered from it, the natural immunity will recognize it again and most likely will equip to take on any varient.

And many have natural immunity and don't even know it. But there is no push for antibody testing. It's a simple and affordable test here in the US. But they are discouraging people to do this. Again, this should give anyone pause and question why? Why if the goal is "herd immunity" That's the only way out of a pandemic. Then some of us realize that's obviously not the goal.

It's all about the politics and power.
 
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godleadyoursoul

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