Man of Sin in the Jewish Holy Temple

[GW]

The "man of sin," who overtook the Jewish Temple just a decade or so after St. Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, was the Zealot terrorist Messiah---in particular Menahem, who in AD 66 overtook the Roman Fortress of Masada, used the weapons to launch the Revolt against Rome from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and executed the Jewish High Priest Ananias. Menahem was the grandson of Judas the Galilean, who had led an anti-Roman revolt in 6 CE; two of his relatives had been crucified after a similar disturbance. The group of Menahem was called Sicarians ('dagger men'). The Sicarii Zealots hailed their leader as king of the Jews and went to Jerusalem, where they laid siege to the remaining Roman garrison. In September AD 66, the Roman leaders occupying Jerusalem surrendered and were lynched. Here's a great biography on the false Jewish messiah, Menahem,

This event which launched the Great Revolt was the event St. Paul had prophesied in 2 Thess 2, which the Thessalonians were to mark as the correct time for Christ's judgment to begin upon Israel. And indeed it was the beginning of God's Judgment, for immediately following this event the Romans, led by Cestius Gallus, marched to the rebellious province, liberated the pro-Roman capital of Galilee (Sepphoris), and continued to Jerusalem. When they appeared at Jerusalem, Luke 21:20-22 took place, and the Jewish Christians fled the city and were saved. Cestius Gallus was temporarily halted at Jerusalem by the Zealot revolutionaries, and this temporary halt allowed the Christians to escape the great city as Jesus had told them to do. But the Romans quickly returned with a larger army and sealed off the entire city, leaving millions of Jews from all over the empire stuck inside (Luke 19:40-44), where they went through civil war, plague, famine, and then a slaughter by the Romans at AD 70. The Temple was taken down stone by stone as Christ had said. "For those were the days of vengeance, that all things written might be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22)

 

[Yekcidmij]

The "man of sin," who overtook the Jewish Temple just a decade or so after St. Paul wrote 2 Thess 2, was the Zealot terrorist Messiah---in particular Menahem, who in AD 66 overtook the Roman Fortress of Masada, used the weapons to launch the Revolt against Rome from the Holy Temple in Jerusalem, and executed the Jewish High Priest Ananias. Menahem was the grandson of Judas the Galilean, who had led an anti-Roman revolt in 6 CE; two of his relatives had been crucified after a similar disturbance. The group of Menahem was called Sicarians ('dagger men'). The Sicarii Zealots hailed their leader as king of the Jews and went to Jerusalem, where they laid siege to the remaining Roman garrison. In September AD 66, the Roman leaders occupying Jerusalem surrendered and were lynched. Here's a great biography on the false Jewish messiah, Menahem,

This event which launched the Great Revolt was the event St. Paul had prophesied in 2 Thess 2, which the Thessalonians were to mark as the correct time for Christ's judgment to begin upon Israel. And indeed it was the beginning of God's Judgment, for immediately following this event the Romans, led by Cestius Gallus, marched to the rebellious province, liberated the pro-Roman capital of Galilee (Sepphoris), and continued to Jerusalem. When they appeared at Jerusalem, Luke 21:20-22 took place, and the Jewish Christians fled the city and were saved. Cestius Gallus was temporarily halted at Jerusalem by the Zealot revolutionaries, and this temporary halt allowed the Christians to escape the great city as Jesus had told them to do. But the Romans quickly returned with a larger army and sealed off the entire city, leaving millions of Jews from all over the empire stuck inside (Luke 19:40-44), where they went through civil war, plague, famine, and then a slaughter by the Romans at AD 70. The Temple was taken down stone by stone as Christ had said. "For those were the days of vengeance, that all things written might be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22)

Excellent post.

Here are a few easy wiki (i hate wiki, but it's an OK overview) reads on Zealots:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealots

and the Sicarii:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii

And here's early church historian Eusebius' account of the fall of Jerusalem:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htmhttp://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250102.htm

Here are a few interesting quotes from it, but all of Books 2 and 3 (they aren't long reads) are worth a look at on this subject:

1. After the death of Tiberius, Caius received the empire, and, besides innumerable other acts of tyranny against many people, he greatly afflicted especially the whole nation of the Jews. These things we may learn briefly from the words of Philo, who writes as follows:

2. "So great was the caprice of Caius in his conduct toward all, and especially toward the nation of the Jews. The latter he so bitterly hated that he appropriated to himself their places of worship in the other cities, and beginning with Alexandria he filled them with images and statues of himself (for in permitting others to erect them he really erected them himself). The temple in the holy city, which had hitherto been left untouched, and had been regarded as an inviolable asylum, he altered and transformed into a temple of his own, that it might be called the temple of the visible Jupiter, the younger Caius."

3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem "as in a prison," to use his own words.

6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up "as in a prison," they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

Anyways, books 2 and 3 are worth a look through.

 

[GW]

Concerning the events that followed, Jewish historian Joseph ben Gorion writes:

For one year before Vespasian came, a single great star shining like unsheathed swords was seen over the Temple. And in those days when the sign was seen it was the holiday of Passover and during that entire night the Temple was lit up and illuminated like the light of day, and thus it was all seven days of the Passover. All the sages of Jerusalem knew that it was a malevolent sign, but the rest of the ignorant people said that it was a benevolent sign.

At that time they brought a calf to sacrifice and it happened when they dropped it to the ground to slaughter it, that behold it gave birth to a sheep. Moreover a sign was seen in the East Gate, for the East Gate was large and very heavy, it did not open until twenty men came in the morning and opened it and twenty men in the evening [came] and closed it and the sound of the gate's hinge was heard from afar. And it happened in those days that they found the gate completely open by itself without the hand of man and they could not close it until there gathered a huge number of people and they closed it. And also regarding this sign the sages of Israel and the priests said that it was bad sign; while the rest of the people said that it was a good sign. Now it happened after this that there was seen from above over the Holy of Holies for the whole night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was quite awesome.

Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire. When the holiday of Shavu'oth came in those days, during the night the priests heard within the Temple something like the sound of men going and the sound of men marching in a multitude going into the Temple, and a terrible and mighty voice was heard speaking: "Let's go and leave this House.” [From Steve Bowman’s translation]​

And many other prodigies were seen by the Jews during this remarkable divine close of the Old Testament Age.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

GUYS!!!! This is nuts!

Look at what happens to the actual man of sin:

2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.



Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.




Dan 8:25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.



Dan 7:11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.



JESUS HAS NOT COME YET. THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

 

[GW]

Jen:
GUYS!!!! This is nuts! JESUS HAS NOT COME YET. THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

GW:
The FINAL judgment of Jesus has not happened yet. But the visitation/judgment of God spoken of at Luke 19:40-44 and Luke 21:20-22 and Matt 21:40-43 has happened.


Jen:
Look at what happens to the actual man of sin: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

GW:
The passage says that the man was active yet being restrained in their day (2:6-7) and that the Thessalonians knew of the situation. So this was a then-contemporary event. Moreover, the Zealot Messiah staging the Revolt from the Holy Temple was the delusion which led to Israel's national destruction (2:11). Next, we know that the phrases "brightness of his presence" and "spirit of his mouth" don't require a physical incarnation of God, for they never require such anywhere else in the bible when that language is used of God's judgments (see: Ps 44:3, Jer 4:26; Nahum 1:1,5; Isa 30:30-31).

The Jews understood that God governs human events and brings calamities upon nations as His personal judgments. It was through the eyes of faith that Elisha saw God's warring chariots of fire all around during a human battle (2 Kings 6:17). It was through the eyes of faith that Gideon raised his own sword and shouted "the Sword of the Lord" (Judges 7:20-22). It was with the eyes of faith that King David could say of his defeat of King Saul:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)​

Likewise it was with the eyes of faith that Jesus labeled the destruction of their country the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and "the Stone which crushes them" (Matt 21:40-45). You see, the Jews understood the rise and fall of nations and empires as God's doing. In none of these instances was a physical incarnation required. And yet in all of these instances God came and waged war and did countless deeds.

 

[Yekcidmij]

GUYS!!!! This is nuts!

JESUS HAS NOT COME YET. THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

I'm not ready to concede that Jesus failed in prophecies to his disciples in Matt 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 17, 21...

Why did the disciples come to think (why should anyone for that matter think) Jesus was a true prophet?
Why did the early christians think, and why should we think, that Jesus is Israel's Messiah?
Why did/should anyone think Jesus is God?

If you start taking Jesus out of a 2nd temple Jewish context, and start applying his teachings to something way far away in the future or apply all his prophecies, and especially the ones about the temple, to rapture and/or second coming, those questions get really really difficult and Jesus starts to become a figure far removed from 2nd temple Judaism.


And no, I don't think Jesus' glorious appearing is in some spiritual sense and I haven't seen anyone pop up from graves lately, so no, there is still a future return.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen:
GUYS!!!! This is nuts! JESUS HAS NOT COME YET. THIS HASN'T HAPPENED YET!

GW:
The FINAL judgment of Jesus has not happened yet. But the visitation/judgment of God spoken of at Luke 19:40-44 and Luke 21:20-22 and Matt 21:40-43 has happened.

Yes, I would agree that the things in those passages have happened. The Jews lost their place and were dispersed because of unbelief. (Biblically, God will restore them)

God also says that the power of the holy people will be destroyed by the man of sin before Christ returns to destroy the man of sin.

Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”



Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Dan 8:12 Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.



Dan 8:24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy the mighty men and the holy people.



Dan 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.



Rev 13:10
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed.

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


This particular event hasn't happened yet. It's going to be terrible. It's hard to imagine that it would ever be difficult to pick up a Bible or hear some truth of it coming from someone's lips but it will happen:

Amo 8:11 “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
“when I will send a famine through the land—
not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord.
Amo 8:12 Men will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east,
searching for the word of the Lord,
but they will not find it.

Jen:
Look at what happens to the actual man of sin: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

GW:
The passage says that the man was active yet being restrained in their day (2:6-7) and that the Thessalonians knew of the situation. So this was a then-contemporary event. Moreover, the Zealot Messiah staging the Revolt from the Holy Temple was the delusion which led to Israel's national destruction (2:11). Next, we know that the phrases "brightness of his presence" and "spirit of his mouth" don't require a physical incarnation of God, for they never require such anywhere else in the bible when that language is used of God's judgments (see: Ps 44:3, Jer 4:26; Nahum 1:1,5; Isa 30:30-31).




The Jews understood that God governs human events and brings calamities upon nations as His personal judgments. It was through the eyes of faith that Elisha saw God's warring chariots of fire all around during a human battle (2 Kings 6:17). It was through the eyes of faith that Gideon raised his own sword and shouted "the Sword of the Lord" (Judges 7:20-22). It was with the eyes of faith that King David could say of his defeat of King Saul:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)​

Likewise it was with the eyes of faith that Jesus labeled the destruction of their country the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and "the Stone which crushes them" (Matt 21:40-45). You see, the Jews understood the rise and fall of nations and empires as God's doing. In none of these instances was a physical incarnation required. And yet in all of these instances God came and waged war and did countless deeds.

So, is your point that you think God can kill the man of sin without His physical incarnation? God can do anything, of course. But, my point is that this particular man of sin is supposed to be killed by Jesus at His coming according to the scriptures I posted. THAT is what hasn't happened yet.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'm not ready to concede that Jesus failed in prophecies to his disciples in Matt 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 17, 21...

Why did the disciples come to think (why should anyone for that matter think) Jesus was a true prophet?
Why did the early christians think, and why should we think, that Jesus is Israel's Messiah?
Why did/should anyone think Jesus is God?

If you start taking Jesus out of a 2nd temple Jewish context, and start applying his teachings to something way far away in the future or apply all his prophecies, and especially the ones about the temple, to rapture and/or second coming, those questions get really really difficult and Jesus starts to become a figure far removed from 2nd temple Judaism.


And no, I don't think Jesus' glorious appearing is in some spiritual sense and I haven't seen anyone pop up from graves lately, so no, there is still a future return.

I don't understand...how is the understanding of the timing of Jesus' return taking Him away from the 2nd temple?

Jesus told them what would happen to that particular temple and it did. Jesus told them that they would lose God's favor and it would be given to someone else and it was.

But, as you know, there are prophecies in both the old and new testament that are fulfilled when Christ returns as the Lion of Judah. Israel will be lifted up and the word of the Lord will go out from Jerusalem. They will be filled with the Spirit and they will build yet another temple on earth.

There's a lot of prophecies that will be fulfilled in a very short period of time.

 

[GW]

Jen:
So, is your point that you think God can kill the man of sin without His physical incarnation?

GW:
Of course. Just as the bible says in verses like Ps 44:3, Jer 4:26; Nahum 1:1,5; Isa 30:30-31. Just as Elisha saw God's warring chariots of fire all around during a human battle (2 Kings 6:17). Just as Gideon raised his own sword and shouted "the Sword of the Lord" (Judges 7:20-22). Just as Jesus described AD 70 as the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and "the Stone which crushes them" (Matt 21:40-45) and the time of their visitation (Luke 19:40-44). Just as King David described his defeat of Saul in this fashion:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)
​

So it was when Christ's presence came upon Jerusalem to destroy it at AD 66-70. The Zealot revolutionaries tricked the Jewish nation into a Messianic rebellion launched from the Holy Temple. The result was the destruction of their nation and Holy Temple. For "those were the days of vengeance that all things written be fulfilled" (Lk 21:20-22). The Jews could never have conceived of the destruction of their nation as anything but God's coming/visitation.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jen:
So, is your point that you think God can kill the man of sin without His physical incarnation?

GW:
Of course. Just as the bible says in verses like Ps 44:3, Jer 4:26; Nahum 1:1,5; Isa 30:30-31. Just as Elisha saw God's warring chariots of fire all around during a human battle (2 Kings 6:17). Just as Gideon raised his own sword and shouted "the Sword of the Lord" (Judges 7:20-22). Just as Jesus described AD 70 as the "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" and "the Stone which crushes them" (Matt 21:40-45) and the time of their visitation (Luke 19:40-44). Just as King David described his defeat of Saul in this fashion:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)​

So it was when Christ's presence came upon Jerusalem to destroy it at AD 66-70. The Zealot revolutionaries tricked the Jewish nation into a Messianic rebellion launched from the Holy Temple. The result was the destruction of their nation and Holy Temple. For "those were the days of vengeance that all things written be fulfilled" (Lk 21:20-22). The Jews could never have conceived of the destruction of their nation as anything but God's coming/visitation.

I don't know...I do see what you are saying, though.

But did God send the Roman army or did God remove His hedge of protection due to their unbelief and allow the Roman army to destroy them which served His purpose? (Like Job...or any of us, for that matter)

In like manner, God ALLOWS the devil to reign for 42 months and kill and imprison His people. But, Biblically, it will be Jesus who kills the man of sin supernaturally after the man of sin breaks the power of the holy people.

Now, I'm not saying that Jesus is going to physically grab the guy and kill him. Scripture says: whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. It looks to me like Christ just speaks a word as He appears and the man of sin is destroyed.

 

[Markea]

Just another example of how preterists make the living and abiding word of God of none effect.

To them (preterists), it's simply a history book that they read like any other lifeless book..

Although to a member of the body of Christ (the church of God), this portion of scripture warns us that there will be people telling us that the Day of Christ has already come..

[bible]2 Thessalonians 2:3-4[/bible]

This is obviously meaningless and lifeless to a preterist.. although it is living and powerful to those who are born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.

 

[GW]

Markea,

With respect, your assertion that a fulfilled prophecy is somehow useless doesn't make sense.

A fulfilled prophecy becomes proof that Christianity is true. A fulfilled prophecy becomes a miraculous proof of the divine origins of Christianity. A fulfilled prophecy becomes a certainty that Christ and the apostles were actually prophets and not false prophets. Fulfilled prophecy forms the basis for why humanity must accept and live by God's laws as they have been handed down to us. Fulfilled prophecy demonstrates how God acts in real history.

God bless,

 

[Yekcidmij]

But, as you know, there are prophecies in both the old and new testament that are fulfilled when Christ returns as the Lion of Judah. Israel will be lifted up and the word of the Lord will go out from Jerusalem. They will be filled with the Spirit and they will build yet another temple on earth.

Well, yes and no. Yes, of course there are things to be fulfilled when Messiah returns.

Regarding the others: who was it that was lifted up and did the word already go out from Jerusalem to the world?

And no, there is no plan from God to rebuild a physical temple. That would make absolutely no sense and would be done apart from God. Are there 2 ways to God, Jesus and Temple? Or is it Jesus? Does God's Spirit dwell in the Holy of Holies or in the believer?

If a temple is built, you can be sure sin, peace, burnt, and guilt offerings will resume. As a christian, I must say that would be a false system.

There's a lot of prophecies that will be fulfilled in a very short period of time.

Perhaps. I don't deny there are things to be fulfilled in the future.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Just another example of how preterists make the living and abiding word of God of none effect.

To them (preterists), it's simply a history book that they read like any other lifeless book..

Oh man...haha... Appearantly I have fallen into the category of the ominous "them". Sounds more like the start of a consipracy theory.

Anyways, I'm not sure what you think preterists believe, heck, I'm not sure what they believe, so I don't know that I quite fit into that category.

And who, besides you, says I think the bible is simply a lifeless history book? That's not at all what I think. Your assertion is laughable.

Although to a member of the body of Christ (the church of God), this portion of scripture warns us that there will be people telling us that the Day of Christ has already come..

Like I said, I don't deny a return in the future so your point is mute.

This is obviously meaningless and lifeless to a preterist.. although it is living and powerful to those who are born again by the incorruptible seed of the word of God, which lives and abides for ever.

Them darn preterists! So lifeless and void, they obviously are dead in the word!

I could just as easly try to marginalize your view, but I'm not ready to stoop to that point just yet.


This is awesome! I've been categorized into a view that I don't even know the tenets of. Incredible!

 

[GW]

Jen:
But did God send the Roman army or did God remove His hedge of protection due to their unbelief and allow the Roman army to destroy them which served His purpose?

GW:
God sent the Roman armies, just like God sent Nebuchadnezzar and the armies of Babylon in a Day of the Lord against Egypt and Israel:

"The day is near, even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the Lord, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain." (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)
​

Do you see how this Day of the Lord was God's judgment, yet it was carried out in real history through human agents? And see yet again all the "physical" things God's presence accomplished without Him ever being visible to natural human sight:

As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
​

That passage is a fulfilled event. Yet note that God never had to appear physically to make it all come to pass.

So it was with the Zealot Messiah Menahem, when he launched his messianic revolt against Rome from the Holy Temple of Jerusalem, a mere decade after St. Paul foretold it in 2 Thess 2. That Revolt was the beginning of Israel's 3.5 year tribulation, which culminated in the destruction of the nation and Temple while the righteous true remnant fled the city and were saved.

 

[Markea]

Markea,

With respect, your assertion that a fulfilled prophecy is somehow useless doesn't make sense.

A fulfilled prophecy becomes proof that Christianity is true. A fulfilled prophecy becomes a miraculous proof of the divine origins of Christianity. A fulfilled prophecy becomes a certainty that Christ and the apostles were actually prophets and not false prophets. Fulfilled prophecy forms the basis for why humanity must accept and live by God's laws as they have been handed down to us. Fulfilled prophecy demonstrates how God acts in real history.

God bless,

I would agree if we were talking about that which has already been fulfilled.. although we're talking about the Day of Christ, and of the apostle Paul (apostle to the Gentiles) who warns of people (exactly like preterists) who would teach others that THAT DAY has already come..

That's what I mean of it being of no effect.. because it has no effect on THAT DAY anymore.. because YOU tell others (Christians, members of the body of Christ, the church of God - which is precisely who Paul is writing to in this living epistle..) that it has already come and gone..

That's USELESS to a member of the body of Christ who depends on every word spoken from the mouth of God.. because YOU are telling them something completely OPPOSITE of what the word of God is telling them.

Perhaps I should not assume that you know what I'm talking about.. although I would expect that every person here who depends on His living and abiding word for their sustenance.. that they would..

[bible]1 Peter 1:13[/bible]

This verse is just as living and powerful to me (today) as it was to those who heard it in the 1st century.. because all of the body of Christ (deceased and those alive now) are waiting for that Day..

The Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.. which is as a thousand years with Him.. and Paul would write this to the church in Phil..

[bible]Philippians 1:6[/bible]

What's that mean to a person who says that THAT DAY happened in AD70..? ? ?

 

[GW]

Markea,

If we are to think of God's judgment as a one time event in history, you'd be right.

But we are not to think of God's judgment as a one time event, so you're wrong. God has come many times in judgment upon nations throughout history. He came in judgment at the time of the Babylonian conquest and exile; He came again in judgment at the time when the Romans destroyed the nation and Temple.

 

[Markea]

Markea,

If we are to think of God's judgment as a one time event in history, you'd be right.

But we are not to think of God's judgment as a one time event, so you're wrong. God has come many times in judgment upon nations throughout history. He came in judgment at the time of the Babylonian conquest and exile; He came again in judgment at the time when the Romans destroyed the nation and Temple.

No person here in this thread has suggested that God's judgment has been a one time event in history..

You evidently cannot see what I'm talking about in my last post.. and that's fine.. perhaps I expect too much..

Your claim in this thread is that 2 Thess 2 has already been fulfilled..ie, that the Day of Christ has already come.. THAT is precisely what Paul is writing about.. SO.. IOW.. his writing in 2 Thess 2 is applicable to what you are saying in this thread.. and again.. perhaps you cannot see that.. and that's fine.. I'm sure that many can see it.

 

[Markea]

Oh man...haha... Appearantly I have fallen into the category of the ominous "them". Sounds more like the start of a consipracy theory.

If 'them' fits your beliefs.. then the shoe fits.

Anyways, I'm not sure what you think preterists believe, heck, I'm not sure what they believe, so I don't know that I quite fit into that category.

And evidently you have no idea what preterism means.. or if you fit into that category..

And who, besides you, says I think the bible is simply a lifeless history book? That's not at all what I think. Your assertion is laughable.

Do you believe and/or teach others that 2 Thess 2 (the context of this thread) has already happened in the past.. ie, the Day of Jesus Christ.. ? ?

If you do, then that alone makes the living and powerful and effectual word of God of none effect.. although perhaps you (like GW) do not understand this simple concept..

Like I said, I don't deny a return in the future so your point is mute.

The context is 2 Thess 2.. concerning the Day of Jesus Christ.. what's your take..? Has it happened yet or not..

It's that simple.. can you tell us..?

Them darn preterists! So lifeless and void, they obviously are dead in the word!

So let's see if the shoe fits.. DO YOU believe that 2 Thess 2 has happened in the past..? OR.. will it take place in the future..?

I could just as easly try to marginalize your view, but I'm not ready to stoop to that point just yet.

By all means.. GO RIGHT AHEAD.. and while you're at it.. explain when and how the Day of Jesus Christ came in AD70.. lol

This is awesome! I've been categorized into a view that I don't even know the tenets of. Incredible!

So you're posting in a forum about things that you're admitting that you're ignorant of..? ? I agree.. that's incredible..

 

[Yekcidmij]

If 'them' fits your beliefs.. then the shoe fits.

And evidently you have no idea what preterism means.. or if you fit into that category..

I could really care less what preterism means. But if you think it describes me, then feel free to call me whatever you want so that you can more quickly categorize and follow on to quickly marginalize what I say. It's much easier to dismiss me by saying "oh he's just a preterist" than it is to rebut or refute.

If you do,, then that alone makes the living and powerful and effectual word of God of none effect.. although perhaps you (like GW) do not understand this simple concept..

I simply reject your assertion. I like it when people label and pretend to know what others think.

I might as well say, "na na na na boo boo, I have a higher Christology than you do" and it would have the same effect that your comment did.

So you're posting in a forum about things that you're admitting that you're ignorant of..? ?

Oh come off of it. I've been posting what I find in scripture if you don't address that but want to try to attack some label instead, then go ahead, but I will consider it a strawman. Quit wanting me to affix a label to myself. If I had said "I'm a preterist" and then proceeded to say "I have no idea what a preterist is", then I would agree with you. But as of right now I have no intent of conceding to your terrible reasoning.





I don't typically like affixing a bunch of labels to my beliefs and walk around proclaiming those labels. Maybe you do, I dunno, but it's rather ridiculous to say, "I'm a rapturist and you should be too since it's biblical" or "I'm a preterist and it's biblical so just believe it". I call myself a Christian, and an orthodox one if you want to go that far, but other than that, you'll have to address particulars instead of labels. Paul had a problem with labels that he addresses:

1 Cor 1:12 Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” 1:13 Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul? 1:14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 1:15 so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name!

3:3 for you are still influenced by the flesh. For since there is still jealousy and dissension among you, are you not influenced by the flesh and behaving like unregenerate people? 3:4 For whenever someone says, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” are you not merely human?