Male/Female how?

MrsFoundit

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This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God).

My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. Can any theistic evolutionists explain? Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God).

My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. Can any theistic evolutionists explain? Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.
I will take a chance on giving an answer just because you got me thinking :)
Scripture tells us Adam was made from dust and that Eve was made from his rib. Adam, a man, carried both X and Y chromosomes. God only used the X chromosomes in Adam to create Eve. We have no details on the animals, it could have been the same for them.
 
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Job 33:6

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This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God).

My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. Can any theistic evolutionists explain? Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.

To understand evolution, you have to gain an understanding of deep time. There are a few complications in your question.

For starters, abiogenesis has to do with the origins of life. Evolution has to do with the descent with modification of life, after it already exists.

Abiogenesis - Wikipedia
Evolution - Wikipedia

So your initial sentence says:
"This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God)."

Which could be rephrased as:
"This is really just a question for anyone who believes that life came from non life"

But whether you're a theistic evolutionists or a Creationist, all of us believe that life came from non life, be it God's dust or molecules of a primordial soup.

With that said, we can now move on to your question.

"My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. "

So you're asking how two sexes formed and how two different bodies formed simultaneously for "those animals".

You should understand that every animal that we have ever known to exist, post-dates the existance of sexual reproduction by hundreds or even thousands of millions of years (or 1.5 thousand-million or 1.5 billion). Studies in genetics estimate the evolution of sexual reproduction some 2 billion years ago, while the fossil succession pins the appearance of animals sometime shortly before the Cambrian explosion and somewhat earlier than the ediacaran biota 800-700 million years ago.


So, what I am pointing out is that animals didn't exist when the evolution of sex first occurred. Sex pre-dates animals by a very long time. With this, the words "body" and "animal" are strange words to use in regards to the origin of sex because animals and bodies didn't yet exist.

So back to your question:
"My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form "

It should also be noted that the origins of sex do not need two different "sexes" or genders. Sex or sexual reproduction, in it's most primitive form, involves two organisms joining together, combining/mixing genes and in some fashion, reproducing or separating. This can actually occur with just a single sex/gender and has been recorded to exist in single celled eukaryotes.

So the answer to the question, in a very simple response, is that sex came about when life still existed as eukaryotic cells, that simply combined, transferred genes, and separated. Before there even was a true male and female.

Bodies would otherwise form just as they do in any other scenario, through selective pressures. If one organism has some means of connecting and swapping genes that doesn't work properly in combination with others, they don't reproduce and they go extinct. Whereas organisms with an efficient means of connecting with others, have more offspring. Genders take form as selective pressures drive mutations that produce sexual dimorphism and then further propel it in ways to produce new body designs, such as described in the papers below.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2010.2220

The Evolution of Sexual Dimorphism: Understanding Mechanisms of Sexual Shape Differences | IntechOpen

The easiest way to understand evolution is to start with the present day and work your way backwards. So I would recommend first understanding the geologic column and fossil succession, along with basic concepts of biology such as mutation and descent with modification, then work your way backwards through time. As opposed to starting in the beginning, which is far more complex, and working your way forward through time.

It's like asking questions about big bang physics when all you really need to understand evolution is to pull out a telescope.

This also reminds me a bit of the chicken and the egg question. The answer begins with understanding that neither male nor female (as we know them) nor chicken egg nor chicken, necessarily came first. Rather their origins came from a time in which chickens nor chicken eggs, and male nor female existed. And their existences came about, for practical purposes, simultaneously.

Although we could argue that the chicken egg came first, then the chicken. But the chicken egg would have to first come from a non-chicken. Though we could argue that the egg comes before the chicken because eggs predate chickens by millions of years...maybe a discussion for another day.
 
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Job 33:6

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Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.

Also, sexual reproduction shuffles genes which thereby enhances genetic diversity. Which is significant in a world where life depends on genetic diversity. In asexual reproduction organisms basically just create clones of themselves. But with sexual reproduction you get a shuffling of genes and variable offspring.
 
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MrsFoundit

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Which could be rephrased as:
"This is really just a question for anyone who believes that life came from non life"

I agree that both creation and evolution are the same on this point, but I would have said since God is alive life did not come from non-life either way. I understand it is atheists who better explain life from no life at all, not theistic evolutionists.


With that said, we can now move on to your question.

"My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. "

So you're asking how two sexes formed and how two different bodies formed simultaneously for "those animals".

Yes. I have not read your link yet, I am about to. Most of what you said dh already knows, but that simultaneous two different bodies thing was the issue. Thank you for the long reply.
 
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Job 33:6

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I agree that both creation and evolution are the same on this point, but I would have said since God is alive life did not come from non-life either way. I understand it is atheists who better explain life from no life at all, not theistic evolutionists.




Yes. I have not read your link yet, I am about to. Most of what you said dh already knows, but that simultaneous two different bodies thing was the issue. Thank you for the long reply.

Sure.

There used to be a Christian biologist with biologos who lurked these forums. @sfs who would probably be more familiar with the topic. I study rocks and am not the most familiar with the origins of sex as such a topic predates all fossils (by a long shot).

But yes, I believe that the simple answer is that sex originated even before there was a male and female. "Monomorphic sexual reproduction". While "genders" were later promoted by the value of sex through selection.

The one link I posted describes competing ideas/observations on how mutations could have initiated the break in genders.

Alternatively, you could dare to venture into the dark side and you could provide atheists with this same question. There are Christians over there too.

See here:
Creation & Evolution

I may do so myself just out of curiosity.
 
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MrsFoundit

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But yes, I believe that the simple answer is that sex originated even before there was a male and female. "Monomorphic sexual reproduction". While "genders" were later promoted by the value of sex through selection.

Got it. This started with a nature documentary about penguins, who certainly seem to need choose a partner and sex based activity differences to stay alive down there.

I need to do some more research before I have much else to say about it.

Your respect for fellow scientists is acknowledged, I did not want the thread to become a debate anyway, so just cheers for the information.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Except all sexually reproducing life is found to be fully male and female from the getgo. You have asexually producing life to this day, so apparently the need to evolve sexual reproduction was not a survival issue since those that reproduce asexually outnumber the others billions to one...

just accept that Adam was asexual until God split the C and Y chromosomes. Hence the two shall become one flesh. That is when they are recombined a new life will be formed..... The same with all the animals.
There are no partial asexual animals forming into sexual animals. All are fully formed and complete.....

To claim otherwise is to ignore the entire fossil record....
 
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SkyWriting

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This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God).

My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. Can any theistic evolutionists explain? Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.

God has planned for the rotation of each atom.
Plus the division of each cell. All planned ahead of time.
 
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Buzzard3

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This is really just a question for anyone who believes in abiogenesis (obviously including guided by God).

My husband wants to know how two sexes for reproduction are supposed to have developed via cell by cell progression, and how two different bodies started to form simultaneously for those animal groups. Can any theistic evolutionists explain? Is there an improved chance of survival involved?

Thank you in advance for any replies.
Not sure if science can explain how male and female "evolved" from an asexual organism. Might be best to just accept it as one of God's amazing party tricks.
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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I don’t have time at the moment to dig into the evolutionary development of sexes and genders at the moment. But there is several articles out there on it.

I did want to talk a bit about “ God guided”. It really depends on what you mean by that. I believe in complete free will. There are things that can affect our choices such as our brain’s chemical composition and so on. So I don’t think Yahweh guided or controlled abiogenesis or evolution. I also don’t believe in soulmates where Yahweh predestined 2 people to be together.

Abiogenesis in a nutshell is still in its early stages but we have some pretty good conclusions. We have created amino acids and so on from nonliving matter. We’ve done it several times in several ways. What we don’t know is the earths exact set up when it happened here.

But back to sexes and genders. Though it’s debated within some groups of Christianity if more than two genders and sexes exist most are ok with recognizing more options within the animal kingdom ( excluding humans ). There are species with several more sexes and genders, and there are species that reproduce asexually through cloning. Even turkeys can create an opposite sex clone without having sex. Aphids obviously can. Some fish can change genders. So the development may not necessarily be a basal mannerism that happened the same way in every species. Take eggs. Eggs, just like eyes and bones, have evolved naturally independently from the way other species did it.
 
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Buzzard3

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Abiogenesis in a nutshell is still in its early stages
The understatement of the century!

abiogenesis science = chasing fairies at the bottom of the garden.
but we have some pretty good conclusions.
Dream on. Scientists can come to as many many "pretty good conclusions" as they like, but until they actually produce a viable organism from inanimate matter, all they're doing is blowing smoke - all talk and no action.
No one takes these dreamers and their meaningless "conclusions" seriously except other dreamers. They talk big just to make themselves look important to other scientists.
We have created amino acids and so on from nonliving matter.
Big deal ... a few amino acids is a whole universe away from a living organism.

And the Miller-Urey experiment also produced heaps of deadly toxins ... not exactly an environment conducive to life, I would imagine.
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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All I can say is this.

I imagine you don’t have a science degree.
I know that the chemists and biologists and other scientists working on these things , the overwhelming majority of them have PhDs.

I imagine you’ve not read even 5 scientific peer reviewed papers on this subject. The scientists have wrote hundreds of thousands of articles, ran thousands of hours on computers and have accomplished a tremendous amount of work.

just because you don’t understand it and just because it’s complicated does not mean your opinion actually carry weight or understanding.

Are you the same guy from BioLogos lately? If so I soggiest you continue engaging with them there and letting them keep setting the facts straight.
 
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Buzzard3

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I imagine you don’t have a science degree.
I know that the chemists and biologists and other scientists working on these things , the overwhelming majority of them have PhDs.

I imagine you’ve not read even 5 scientific peer reviewed papers on this subject. The scientists have wrote hundreds of thousands of articles, ran thousands of hours on computers and have accomplished a tremendous amount of work.
Have those scientists produced a viable organism from inanimate matter? If not, they accomplished NOTHING.
They're wasting their time ... chasing the wind.
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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Have those scientists produced a viable organism from inanimate matter? If not, they accomplished NOTHING.
They're wasting their time ... chasing the wind.

A waste of time to who? The uneducated? The first step to abiogenesis is creating building blocks of life from chemicals and elements. They’ve accomplished that. They’ve repeated it dozens of times.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...iogenesis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

that link to google scholar shows hundreds of various papers on this subject and related subjects.


That’s the scientific process. We work with what we have and keep building on it and testing it.
 
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Buzzard3

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A waste of time to who? The uneducated? The first step to abiogenesis is creating building blocks of life from chemicals and elements. They’ve accomplished that. They’ve repeated it dozens of times.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...iogenesis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

that link to google scholar shows hundreds of various papers on this subject and related subjects.


That’s the scientific process. We work with what we have and keep building on it and testing it.
Good luck with that. LOL
 
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SkovandOfMitzae

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SkovandOfMitzae

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As opposed to our Christian faith that includes resurrecting dead men, flying invisible beings and cosmic powers influencing thoughts in the minds of people?

Abiogenesis is science…. Not faith.

with that said I understand this goes beyond the typical persons understanding and so until someone pops up with something to counter I’m going to ignore the baiting statements.
 
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